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If Jesus is God, can these verses be true?

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by edpobre, Feb 6, 2002.

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  1. Yeshuaskin1

    Yeshuaskin1 New Member

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    Shalom All,
    I am a new here so I will introduce myself briefly and give a quick answer, by no mean exhaustive.

    I am a Messianic Jew, for those who do not know what that is, I am a Jewish person who believes that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus was and is Jewish. He did not come to start a new religion called “Christianity” He came to fulfill the Jewish “religion” and bring about all G-d’s promises. I believe that the Torah and Tanach(Old Testament) are as authoritative as the Brit Chadashah (New Covenant). I believe that G-d is ONE and He is the only G-d. I believe that Yeshua or Jesus was a manifestation of G-d, which is what I see jbenjesus believing as well. G-d manifested himself in various ways through out the Tanach. He show himself as man to Avraham, Yitzak, and Yacov(Abraham, Issac and Jacob). To Avraham, our father, He was a man traveling through Avraham’s land and was on His way to destroy Sodom and Gemorrah. Avraham fed Him and He ate. To Yacov He was a man who wrestled him.

    Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone. And a Man wrestled there with him until the breaking of the day.

    This “man” was God. For his name was changed to Yisrael, He who wrestles with G-d.

    G-d also manifested Himself as a pillar of fire and a cloud. So to say that G-d does not manifest Himself in different ways would be to deny scripture. Which is what I see in the conversation over and over again. Taking one or two verses, with your own interpretation of the verse, to say that other clear verses are wrong. This is called Isoegsis. What we need to do is do Exoegsis. Using the WHOLE Word of G-d and find the answer.

    Now to answer the question of Yeshua saying or demonstrating that He is G-d in the flesh I will use this passage:

    Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Avraham came into being, I AM!

    After Yeshua says this the Jews were going to stone Him, WHY? Because Him being a man is claiming to be G-d. “I AM” is the personal name G-d gave himself when he revealed Himself to Moshe(Moses). “I AM” is the Hebrew word YHWH, the ineffable name of G-d. For anyone other then G-d Himself to use this name is blaspheme of the worst kind. So either Yeshua is G-d or He is a blasphemer.

    I could give many more proofs from Judaism and the OT. But I cannot at the moment I am very busy and need to get back to what I was doing. I found this by accident.

    In Messiah,
    Yosi
     
  2. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    I was explaining the difference between "spirit" (notice caps), or God breathed, as oppsedto "Spirit", being the Holy Spirit of the Trinity.

    A man's "spirit" is not the "Holy Spirit". BY virtue of being a man, Jesus had a "spirit", it was not until He was Baptized, that the Holy Spirit entered into Him, as it is with us.

    When Jesus gave up his spirit, (some translations say ghost), it was His "spirit" and not the "Spirit".
     
  3. Schrack

    Schrack the Baptist

    18
    +1
    Hi Yeshuaskin, I'd like to respond to your post but can't at the moment since I'm at work. I'll get back to you later on tonight as I have some things I'd like to say in response.

    SchracktheBaptist
     
  4. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

    165
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    Your right: the spirit of man is not the Holy Spirit. But the Spirit of the Man Jesus Christ was/is the Holy Spirit of the God. The same Holy Spirit of God of the Old Covenant was the same One that manifested Himself in the flesh in the New Covenant.

    Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

    You said,
    If the Holy Spirit entered into Jesus at His baptism, then why at His birth was He considered Christ the Lord? Why at His birth was He called Immanuel which means God with us?

    If the Holy Spirit was not His Spirit from the beginning then he was just a mere mortal man?

    Since the Holy Spirit was His actual Spirit from His birth He was recognized as God and Lord and was worshipped as such by the shepherds and wise men. If that were not true then the shepherds and wise men worshipped a mortal. God would not have the shepherds do that and "share His glory."

    This is what made Him unique above all men (humanity) that have ever existed. His Spirit was actually the Holy Spirit for there are not two Spirits (spirits) of God.

    Only One.
     
  5. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    Yeshuaskin1,

    I've got a couple of questions for you. On your comment:
    The phrase "I am" in this verse is translated from ego eimi. This phrase is used numerous times by both Jesus and others in the New Testament.

    Jesus uses the phrase in Matthew 24:5 and Mark 13:6 saying he is the Christ. And also in Luke 22:70 when asked if he is the Son of God answers "I am. In the sixth chapter of John, Jesus uses the phrase when telling the deciples that he is the "bread of life", and in the eighth chapter when describing himself as the "light of the world". In Acts 9:5, when Saul asks who is speaking to him, Jesus says "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest"

    The angel Gabriel uses the phrase in Luke 1:19, when identifying himself to Zacharias.

    In John 3:28, when John the Baptist uses the phrase to say "I am not the Christ"

    Paul uses the phrase to identify himself in Acts 21:39.

    Now, were all of these other cases where "I am" (ego eimi) is being used talking of God?

    We need to look at the conversation that was taking place before John 8:58. They were speaking of the laws of Moses when Jesus informs them that he has been sent from God, that God bears witness of him, and is his father.

    My next question concerns how sons are seen in relation to fathers. If a son goes to do the business of his father, is the son to be considered as having the same authority as his father. In other words, if the son makes an agreement or is speaking with someone, and is the representative of his father, is he considered his father?

    I know that last question may be a little confusing, so please bear with me on it.

    Thanks
     
  6. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    I think you need to look at the sentence structer there drmjr. The phrase ends the sentence and has no other indicator that is is pointing to another suject. Thus he is declaring himself to be the great I am. This is just as God did in the OT. The people there knew exactly what it ment as shown by then trying to stone Christ.
     
  7. Schrack

    Schrack the Baptist

    18
    +1
    Hi Yeshuaskin,

    As I said earlier, I feel compelled to respond to a couple of things you stated, because I really do have a problem with some of the things that the "Messianic" movement is teaching today.

    I am a Messianic Jew, for those who do not know what that is, I am a Jewish person who believes that Jesus is the Messiah.

    Why don't "Messianic Jews" just call themselves Christians? After all, Peter was a Jew too, writing to Jewish believers, and yet he was not ashamed to associate that name with the Jewish believers who suffered for Christ. But it seems today that "Messianic Jews" intentionally avoid trying to use that term in reference to themselves. Frankly, I think it is because they wish to vaunt their "Jewishness," which would indicate to me that a sense of "Jewish pride" has crept in unawares among their adherents.

    Jesus was and is Jewish. He did not come to start a new religion called “Christianity”; He came to fulfill the Jewish “religion” and bring about all G-d’s promises.

    Whether it is admitted or not, Christianity is in many ways diverse from Judaism, and is in fact its fulfillment (where Judaism ends). While Christianity does incorporate many of the moral principles as contained in the law of Moses, its real basis is in the promise of faith, not in the law, which is why the promise as given to Abraham pertained to "all nations" and not just Israel. The Christians, therefore, are now the corporate and covenant people of God, because they have believed God's record concerning his Son; the Jewish nation, however, will not be grafted back in until it has turned to God in repentance and has received the Messiah at his return.

    I believe that the Torah and Tanach(Old Testament) are as authoritative as the Brit Chadashah (New Covenant).

    Authoritative in what way? Under the law, is a woman still bound to her husband once he is dead? Or is she free to marry and be bound to another? Those who advocate that Jewish believers are still bound to the law run into a very serious problem, for the law demands obedience to ALL the words spoken by God, and not just the ones that are convenient to carry out (see Deut. 27:26; 28:58).

    The rest of what you said I have no problem with. But I do have a problem with the "Messianic" movement today, as it tends to 1) try and distances itself from Christianity, and 2) try and portray Jews as having a more accurate perspective of the law and the new covenant simply because they are, well, "Jewish."

    I realize this is a bit off thread, so moderator, if you wish me to move this to a new thread just let me know.

    SchracktheBaptist
     
  8. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    Huh? The Holy Spirit is NOT Jesus! Jesus is Theanthropas: the God/man. He took on an additional nature so that He was 100% God and 100% man. God is triune, yet one.

    God Bless
     
  9. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    Ed,

    Are you a Modalist or a Oneness Pentecostal? You obviously have a bias because you are eisegeting the text and not exegeting it.
    Why don't you read ALL of scripture instead of picking and choosing verses that *seem* to back up your faulty logic.
    Why don't you look at John 1, John 8, John 10, Titus 2, Colossians 1, Hebrews 1, Revelation 1. This is only a small portion of scripture affirming Jesus's deity.

    God Bless
     
  10. Godbrain

    Godbrain New Member

    20
    +1
    Whosever denies the doctrine of the Trinity should not be considered a true christian. how can a person be christian if he denies god's true nature. Jesus said i am in the father and the father is in me. And the father and i are one. when jesus said he was at god's right hand he meant at the right hand meaning power. not physcial postion. (i am god's right handman).
     
  11. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    I agree 100% Godbrain. Virtually all heresies begin with a misconception of the nature of God. The essentials form the demarcation line between the kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of the cults.

    "In Essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love" -Augustine

    God Bless
     
  12. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    As the holy Spirit is a seperate member of the Trinity than the Son of God, Jesus was GOd at birth becasue He was the Son of God.

    No, at birth He was a man, and the Son. I fnot, then why is Jesus in Heavne and the Holy Spirit here with us? The Holy Spirit ha sa will seperate from that of the The Father and the Son. Te Bible states as much. Jesus said He was leaving a comforter beinhd. Did He leave His "spirit" beihnd? or did He leave the Holy Spirit behind?

    Guessing you don't subscribe to the Trinity doctrine either, huh? :)
     
  13. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

    165
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    Christian
    You seem confused...

    Is He triune or is He one?

    I don't mind discussing this either. You guys want to start yelling people are not Christian because they don't subscribe to your man made formulation and explanation of Godhead, you might want to check yourself and the log in your eye. I mean that respectfully b/c judging one another when we may be brothers and sisters is an unwise spiritual thing to do.

    Zonechaos, I suggest you open up a new thread so we can discuss this amicably and humbly with one another, if you can handle that.

    This thread, however, is dicussing if Jesus is God b/c Edpobre fails to recognize His divinity, which I think we both agree on.

    You said,
    It is written and recorded in John 14:16-18 that Jesus said,
    He said another Comforter (Paraclete) would come that would abide with them forever, also known as the Spirit of truth. Now read carefully. Jesus said ye know him for he dwelleth with you. Jesus was dwelling with them and prophesied that the Spirit of truth will be in them. He said he would not leave them comfortless, but that "I will come to you."

    He was speaking of Himself the whole time, but He was the Holy Spirit of God, manifested in the flesh and as such could not indwell but dwell with them. However, as the Holy Spirit (being omnipresent anyway) which was God's very essence has no limitations in that sense and would come to indwell them.

    Different roles and differenet manifestations of the One True God in relation to man.

    But as I said before, this is better discussed in a separate thread. You go ahead and start it and let me know when you have.

    His Spirit was and is the Holy Spirit. Again, there are not two Spirits, only One. Unless you want to contradict scripture and say there are two now?
     
  14. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    All three "persons" of the Trinty are God. Yet all three are not the same. The Son of God is not the Holy Spirit. The holy Spirit is not the Father, and the Father is not the Son.

    Another, sperate and distinct from the Son, Jesus Christ.

    As Jesus said this, there were only a few short days before Hewas to die, be resurrected and ascend into Heaven. He sasy here, that even when he leaves them, He will not leave them comfortless. That comfort comes in the presence of the Holy Spirit. And through the holy Spirit's presence, being born again in the Spirit, we can again see Jesus, and again be wit Jesus, not physicaly, but spiritually.

    My whole point is that when Jesus "gave up the ghost" on the cross, He wasn't giving up "The Holy Spirit", but that which made Him alive: the breath of God as seen in Genesis.
     
  15. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

    165
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    You said,
    Now He's three. Well Zonechaos, which one is it?

    Obviously three can't be one and vice verse. If he's 3 "persons" than you do the math:

    1 + 1 + 1 = 3 or are you saying 1 +1 +1 = 1? Uh... I hope not.

    I say 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. There is the difference between our understandings and how we express it.

    You said,
    "The holy Spirit is not the Father, and the Father is not the Son."

    In the latter part of your statement I agree. The role of "the Father" is not the role of "the Son". The Father was in the Son, though. That is how Jesus could say, "I and the Father are one."

    But regarding the 1st part of that statement, Mary asked Gabriel how is it that she would have a child when she had known no man. Gabriel answered how:

    Matthew 1:18 - Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    Ouch! The child was "of the Holy Ghost" which makes the Holy Spirit the Father of the child - Jesus. You still want to stick to your guns about that statement and say that the Holy Spirit is not the Father?

    Luke 1:35 - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    He was called the Son of God because the holy thing that came out of Mary was because the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and caused her to conceive, even though she was still a virgin.

    If the Holy Spirit is not the Father, pray tell, who is the Father that concieved Jesus in the womb of Mary?

    Are you saying that there are now two Fathers?

    It says the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. It doesn't say the Father did that.

    Unless of course, the Holy Spirit is the Father? ;)

    Yes, I do believe so.

    Please start a new thread. This will just sidetrack from the issue of this thread even they are very closely related.
     
  16. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    1 x 1 x 1 = 1 is how I see it too ;)

    Yes. Thge child was concieved by the Spirit, but that in no way syasy that the child was the holy Spirit. he SO and the Holy Spirit are seperate. The holy Spirit is niether the Fasther or the Son.

    The verse says "of the holy Ghost" not "is the holy Ghost".

    Nope.

    Or unless all three are the same God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not the Spirit of the Father, though the Spirit does the will of the Father, and thus thorugh action of will is of the Father.

    God is the father of the Son, manifest in the Father, apart from the Spirit and the Son.

    Plus, we are not talking about a physical conception here, but a spiritual one. Thus, Through the Holy Spirit, the Father concieved, not through sperm, but through His Will that the Son be born a man. By the Father's Will, the Father is the father even though this was done threough the Holy Spirit.

    The holy Spirit here was the go-between of God and Mary. The Holy Spirit came to Mary, but the conception was not caused by the Spirit, but by the Will of the Father through the Spirit.

    Thus, the Father is still the father of the Son, through His will, and the Spirit is not the father, nor the Father.
     
  17. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Ok... you said,

    quote:

    "Yes. Thge child was concieved by the Spirit, but that in no way syasy that the child was the holy Spirit. he SO and the Holy Spirit are seperate."


    Whoever said the child was the Holy Spirit. I said the Father of the child was the Holy Spirit. There are not two Fathers. The Holy Spirit is Father God.

    You again said, which I find hard to believe seeing that this statement conflicts with explicit scripture:

    quote:

    "The holy Spirit is niether the Fasther or the Son. "



    The Holy Spirit is the Father of the child according to Matthew 1:18:
    Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    C'mon now Zone'? Really? It says, "with child of the Holy Ghost." That's like saying your wife was found with child of Zonechaos. That statment means you are the father. (If you have a wife and child? I don't know. Just an example.)

    You also said,
    quote:

    "Or unless all three are the same God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not the Spirit of the Father, though the Spirit does the will of the Father, and thus thorugh action of will is of the Father. "



    So now we have God who is separate from the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) who is separate from the Spirit of the Father. By this statment you're telling me there are multiple gods and multiple spirits.

    Ephesians 4:4-6 says there is only One Spirit who is the One Lord who is the One God who is the One Father. Titles all speaking of the same One God.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    From Old Covenant to New Covenant there are never 3 persons. Explicitly and emphatically He is always One.

    You said,
    quote:

    "God is the father of the Son, manifest in the Father, apart from the Spirit and the Son."


    One word: What?!

    You said,
    "Thus, the Father is still the father of the Son, through His will, and the Spirit is not the father, nor the Father. "
    Again one word: What?!

    Your argument at the end of your post became uninteligible and you keep contradicting Matthew 1:18.

    You do understand that there are many more 1's of God. Don't limit God to 3 manifestations:

    1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 ... = 1

    The burning bush...

    "the angel of the Lord"...

    one of the three "men" who came to Abraham before Sodom and Gamorrah...

    I could continue to list, but it's late and my wife awaits...
     
  18. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
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    How many places was God perceived to be in when Jesus was baptised by John?

    There was a voice from Heaven (that's 1) - the Holy Spirit was seen to be descending upon Jesus (that's 2) - Jesus was in the water (that's 3).

    Now is the Holy Spirit God, or if not, who or what is the Holy Spirit?

    In Matthew 28 : 19 people are to be baptised into whose name?
     
  19. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Sorry I hit the "Edit" button agian sheesh...

    I give up.

    I think I got your post back but it is missing the quote bars.

    Here is my reply:

    ------------------

    Nope.

    Sorry thought it was your stance that the Holy Spirit was the spirit of Jesus.

    Yo are comparing God to man there. God alwasy works through the Holy Spirit. And we are not talking about a Father / Son relationship as we know it. You are limiting yourself to the physical termsinology of the words. Don;t thikn of the Father and the Son, nor the verse "of the Holy Spirit" as precreation. The SOn was not created at this point. The Son is as eternal as the Father. The Father is the "father" od the SOn by virtue of His will. and the Son's physical birth as Jesus was not an act of precreation by the Spirit, but was of the Spirit becasue the Holy Spirit was the way to Mary from the Father.

    To say tha te Holy Spirit and the Father ar not sperate an unique withi the Trinity is to deny the Trinity.

    No, we do not have the Holy Spirit seperate from "God". We have the holy Spirit seperate from the Father. Both are the same God. Thus only one God, and three seperate "entities", the Father, Son, and Spirit, who are the same God.

    The verses do not mean the saem as your paraphrase of the verses.

    "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all."

    This verse is not talking about the Trininty of God. The first part is speaking of the Church. We, the humans are the Body, and God is the Spirit of the Body.

    The second part is talking about ONe Lord (Jesus Christ) as being the only one way to salvation thorugh Him.

    The third part is talking about One God, who created all, and is the only God that exists.

    You have changed the meaning of the verses in your paraphrase to say that the Spirit and the Fasther are the same, thus invalidating the Trinity nature of God.

    Persons is a bad word to use i will agree.. but many places in scripture do we see each of these "entities", who are God, as having thier own will, as existing apart from each other, as talking to eachother, etc... there is definatiely a Trinity there.

    What you are claiming would better suit a Oneness philosophy.

    I will make it clearer. God the Father is the daddy of God the Son, because God the Father is God, who is apart from God the Spirit and God the Son, and not becasue He "fathered" or procreated physically, God the Son.

    Thus, God the Father is still the daddy of God the Son, through His will even though it was the God the Spirit that came unto Mary, and God the Spirit is not the daddy, nor is God the Spirit, God the Father.

    I removed "manifest" as well, as you are correct, the "persons" of the trinity are not "manifestations"
     
  20. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    The holy Spirit is God, but not the Father.
     
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