If Jesus is God, can these verses be true?

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LouisBooth

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Well if you look at Christ's statements in the Acts recount of Christ's fufillment of Scripture we see that in chapter 13 verse 32 "We tell you the good news. What God promised our fathers he has fufilled for us, their childer, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Pslam : "You are my Son' today I have become your Father." It goes on to quote more passages but I think this one is pretty key. It shows that the Son refered to in the passage in Pslams 2 was indeed the Christ.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
Well if you look at Christ's statements in the Acts recount of Christ's fufillment of Scripture we see that in chapter 13 verse 32 "We tell you the good news. What God promised our fathers he has fufilled for us, their childer, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Pslam : "You are my Son' today I have become your Father." It goes on to quote more passages but I think this one is pretty key. It shows that the Son refered to in the passage in Pslams 2 was indeed the Christ.

LouisBooth,

Nobody denies that the son referred to in Psalm 2 is Jesus. But Psalm 2 does NOT tell us that Jesus WAS the WORD of God before the New Testament was written. Thus, John 1:1 does NOT refer to Jesus but to God's WORD regarding the birth of Jesus.

As Acts 13:32 testifies, WHAT was God's WORD was His PROMISE to our fathers regarding the birth of Jesus as receorded in Isaiah 7:14. Was this preomise fulfilled? Yes because God's WORD or PROMISE was God or HAD the authority and POER of God who SPOKE the WORD or PROMISE.

Ed
 
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LouisBooth

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"Nobody denies that the son referred to in Psalm 2 is Jesus. "

*chuckles..really ed?
I just answered your question

"If you were a Israelite who lived 200 years BEFORE Christ was born and you were reading Psalm 2, would you have imagined that the one speaking is another God or a PART of the God he was referring to? "

the answer was yes :)
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Nobody denies that the son referred to in Psalm 2 is Jesus. "

*chuckles..really ed?
I just answered your question

"If you were a Israelite who lived 200 years BEFORE Christ was born and you were reading Psalm 2, would you have imagined that the one speaking is another God or a PART of the God he was referring to? "

the answer was yes :)

color=blue]Please show us where in Psalm 2 gives you the idea that another God was speaking to God.

Ed[/color]
 
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LouisBooth

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"Please show us where in Psalm 2 gives you the idea that another God was speaking to God. "

I used Pslams 2 to show you that you 1. misunderstand the title of Christ that is "Son of God" and also that all authority is to Christ and he rules. that's God's position. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, says I and a duck are one. then guess what? Its a duck.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Please show us where in Psalm 2 gives you the idea that another God was speaking to God. "

I used Pslams 2 to show you that you 1. misunderstand the title of Christ that is "Son of God" and also that all authority is to Christ and he rules. that's God's position. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, says I and a duck are one. then guess what? Its a duck.

All you have to prove your belief that Jesus is God are FALSE assumptions and FALSE interpretations.

Jesus PERFORMED miracles but that does mean he is God. The Bible teaches that it was God who performed these miracles THROUGH him (Acts 2:22).

Jesus FORGAVE sins but it does NOT make him God. God GAVE him the authority to forgive sins ON EARTH (Mark 2:10).

Jesus will JUDGE the world but that does NOT men he is God. God ORDAINED him to do so (Acts 17:31).

Jesus is our SAVIOR but it does NOT mean he is God. God MADE him SAVIOR (Acts 5:31).

You THINK according to the basic principles of the world and NOT according to Christ. This was what apostle Paul warned Christians against (Col. 2:8).

Ed



 
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LouisBooth

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"All you have to prove your belief that Jesus is God are FALSE assumptions and FALSE interpretations.
"

/me chuckles
If you say so ed, I have verses that plainly say jesus is God by words and by actions.

"You THINK according to the basic principles of the world and NOT according to Christ. This was what apostle Paul warned Christians against "

This is your exact problem ed. right after Paul says this he then makes a very important theological statement saying Jesus is God..fully. You seem to miss that.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"All you have to prove your belief that Jesus is God are FALSE assumptions and FALSE interpretations.
"

* LouisBooth chuckles
If you say so ed, I have verses that plainly say jesus is God by words and by actions.

"You THINK according to the basic principles of the world and NOT according to Christ. This was what apostle Paul warned Christians against "

This is your exact problem ed. right after Paul says this he then makes a very important theological statement saying Jesus is God..fully. You seem to miss that.

No,I didn't miss that Louis.

Neither did I miss 1 Cor. 8:6 where apostle Paul wrote that for him and the Corinthian Christians, there is ONLY ONE God and that ONLY ONE God is the FATHER - NOT THE son.

Neither did I miss Acts 17:31 where apostle Paul wrote that God has appointed a day by which He will judge the world... by the MAN whom He has ordained..."

And neither did I miss 1 Tim. 2:5 where apostle Paul wrote that there is ONLY ONE mediator between God and men, that MAN Christ Jesus.

Seems to me, you are only interested in those verses that "unstable and untaught persons TWIST to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16).

You don't seem to realize Louis that ACCORDING to Christ himself, he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God.

Ed


 
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LouisBooth

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Torah, its pretty clear you don't understand the title Son of God. Do some research on it and you will see it doesn't not limit Christ to be just a man. In fact it more then ever proves he is God.

Ed, I've debated this long with you, showed you the verses that clearly say Christ is God. Do I think he was a man? YES! so those verses line up with incarnation. He was also God, that's the part you tend to leave out and in doing so have to cut verses out of your bible.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
Torah, its pretty clear you don't understand the title Son of God. Do some research on it and you will see it doesn't not limit Christ to be just a man. In fact it more then ever proves he is God.

Where did you get the notion that Jesus' title Son of God more than ever proves that he is God? When did Jesus ACQUIRE the title Son of God Louis? Was Jesus Son of God BEFORE he was born or AFTER he was born?/color]

Ed, I've debated this long with you, showed you the verses that clearly say Christ is God.

You haven't shown me any verse that "CLEARLY" says Jesus is God, except Isaiah 9:6 which is EITHER an UNFULFILLED prophecy or a MISTRANSLATION and Heb. 1:8 which was lifted from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. BTW, how do you define "CLEAR?"

Do I think he was a man? YES! so those verses line up with incarnation. He was also God, that's the part you tend to leave out and in doing so have to cut verses out of your bible.

Show me the verses that you say I cut out of my Bible. You say these verses "CLEARLY" say that Jesus is God. Prove it!

In another post, I talked about someone who talks to an UNSEEN being in the middle of a busy street, OBLIVIOUS of people around him. Should I believe him if he comes to me and tell me that the person he was talking to was Pres. Bush?

Wouldn't I be called crazy for spending even 30 seconds with such person? What do you "SEE" my friend?

Ed


 
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LouisBooth

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"Where did you get the notion that Jesus' title Son of God more than ever proves that he is God? "

If you had read Pslams 2 when I told you you woud get it.
'
ed col 2:9 clearly shows it as does John chapter 1.

"You say these verses "CLEARLY" say that Jesus is God. Prove it! "

I have ed, I posted numerous amounts of verses to you and you always just shurg them off and say whatever.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Where did you get the notion that Jesus' title Son of God more than ever proves that he is God? "

If you had read Pslams 2 when I told you you woud get it.

I have read Psalm 2 and I could NOT find a verse which tells me that the title Son of God more than ever proves that Jesus is God.

ed col 2:9 clearly shows it as does John chapter 1.

Col. 2:9 does NOT clearly say that Jesus is God. And neither does John chapter 1. It is your own PERSONAL interpretation that makes Jesus God.

"You say these verses "CLEARLY" say that Jesus is God. Prove it! "

I have ed, I posted numerous amounts of verses to you and you always just shurg them off and say whatever.

Aside from Is. 9:6 which is a prophecy that was NOT totally fulfilled and Heb. 1:8 which was lifted from a MISTRANSLATED version Psalm 45:6, please show us one verse that "CLEARLY" says, Jesus is God.

Ed


 
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LouisBooth

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"I have read Psalm 2 and I could NOT find a verse which tells me that the title Son of God more than ever proves that Jesus is God. "

Well ed, if you read it then what does the title Son of signify biblically? It DOESN'T signify a biological relationship


"It is your own PERSONAL interpretation that makes Jesus God. "

*sigh* whatever you say ed. I prefer to read the text, not ignore it. It says clearly Jesus is the Godhead in body (ie human) form. IE incarnation. John 1 says God=Logos which =Jesus therefore God=Jesus. Ignore the text all you want though, you always do.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I have read Psalm 2 and I could NOT find a verse which tells me that the title Son of God more than ever proves that Jesus is God. "

Well ed, if you read it then what does the title Son of signify biblically? It DOESN'T signify a biological relationship

Just because "the title Son of God DOESN'T signify a biological relationship" is NOT proof "more than ever" that Jesus is God.

Your FALSE belief that the title Son of God proves more than ever that Jesus is God is based on:

1) your FALSE assumption that "since the title Son of God DOESN'T signify biological relationship," then Jesus MUST be God.

2) your REJECTION of John 8:40 where Jesus CALLED himself a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus REVEALED the FATHER as the ONLY true God.

The FACT is, whatever meaning you want to ascribe to the title "Son of God" the TRUTH remains that Jesus is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God.


"It is your own PERSONAL interpretation that makes Jesus God. "

*sigh* whatever you say ed. I prefer to read the text, not ignore it. It says clearly Jesus is the Godhead in body (ie human) form. IE incarnation. John 1 says God=Logos which =Jesus therefore God=Jesus. Ignore the text all you want though, you always do.

Except for Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8 which are not accurate translations, where else can we CLEARLY read that Jesus is God? I don't see the WORD identified as Jesus in John 1:1. Do you?

Isn't it possible that it is ONLY your mind that "SEES" these "CLEAR" passages that say Jesus is God? Isn't that SIMILAR to someone talking to an UNSEEN being in the middle of a busy street, OBLIVIOUS to everyone around him?

I'm sure you have SEEN these kind of people and you know what they are, don't you?

Ed


 
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LouisBooth

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"Just because "the title Son of God DOESN'T signify a biological relationship" is NOT proof "more than ever" that Jesus is God. "

*chuckles* Ed you really don't know a think about context do you? Let me sum up what has been said

Ed: christ can't be God because his title is "son of" therefore a "son" can't be a "dad"

Louis: the title son of doesn't imply a biological relation ship

Ed: yes it does

Louis: read pslams 2

Ed: well this doesn't imply Jesus is God

Louis: I was showing you your reasons for saying he isn't God are wrong. YOu misunderstand the title

Now if you wanna see how it proves he is..just think about it. If I have all the power and authority God does, am I not God?

"2) your REJECTION of John 8:40 where Jesus CALLED himself a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus REVEALED the FATHER as the ONLY true God. "

*sigh* I don't reject that verse. You do. I say Christ was a man, but not JUST a man. Other verses you reject are

col 2:9, the whole 1st chapter of John, Several statements Christ makes like the father and I are one, Places where Jesus shows he is God (like Luke 5) and pretty much anything Paul says about Christ.

*laughs* anytime you say the words "except for" it means you have a hole in your arugment and you're probably wrong ed. In this case you are.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Just because "the title Son of God DOESN'T signify a biological relationship" is NOT proof "more than ever" that Jesus is God. "

*chuckles* Ed you really don't know a think about context do you? Let me sum up what has been said

Ed: christ can't be God because his title is "son of" therefore a "son" can't be a "dad"

Louis: the title son of doesn't imply a biological relation ship

Ed: yes it does

Louis: read pslams 2

Ed: well this doesn't imply Jesus is God

Louis: I was showing you your reasons for saying he isn't
God are wrong. YOu misunderstand the title

This exchange of posts NEVER happened. You are only showing how a Trinitarian mind works. I NEVER said,
"christ can't be God because his title is "son of" therefore a "son" can't be a "dad"

Also, I NEVER said that the "title of Son IMPLIES a biological relationship."


Now if you wanna see how it proves he is..just think about it. If I have all the power and authority God does, am I not God?

You think like that morning star who thought he was God because of all the qualities God GAVE him. He deserved to be thrown out of heaven.

Jesus said that all authority were GIVEN to him in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18). Who GAVE him the authority Louis?


"2) your REJECTION of John 8:40 where Jesus CALLED himself a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus REVEALED the FATHER as the ONLY true God. "

*sigh* I don't reject that verse. You do. I say Christ was a man, but not JUST a man.

You say I reject these verses. You really are something Louis. How can you say this when I have been repeating over and ovr that Jesus is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God? My, my, you sound more like a 4-year old as we talk abouyt the Trinity!

Other verses you reject are

col 2:9, the whole 1st chapter of John, Several statements Christ makes like the father and I are one, Places where Jesus shows he is God (like Luke 5) and pretty much anything Paul says about Christ.

*laughs* anytime you say the words "except for" it means you have a hole in your arugment and you're probably wrong ed. In this case you are.

I don't reject any verse that is ACCURATELY translated and does NOT contradict any TRUTH utterred by Jesus. A MISINTERPRETATION of Col. 2:9 makes John 8:40 and John 17:3 FALSE.

When I said "except for Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8" I was only being careful when I said that there is NO verse in the Bible that says "Jesus is God" because these MISTRANMSLATED verses say he is. This does NOT mean that my rgument has a hole. You are merely grasping at straws my friend.

Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8 are MISTRANSLATIONS that MAKE Jesus a LIAR! I REJECT these verses because they are MISTRANSLATIONS.

Ed


 
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LouisBooth

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"I NEVER said,
"christ can't be God because his title is "son of" therefore a "son" can't be a "dad" "

Ed, yes you have.

"Who GAVE him the authority Louis? "

The Father gave it BACK to him AFTER he gave it up...Phil 2:5-8. Clearly shows he had it long before it was "given back" to him.

"How can you say this when I have been repeating over and ovr that Jesus is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God? "

I've explained this to you many times ed, using several different analogies to try to get you to understand scripture. You simple flat out refuse to read the words on the page ed. Logos is God Christ is the Logos. so Christ is God period. It says that in black and white.

"A MISINTERPRETATION of Col. 2:9 makes John 8:40 and John 17:3 FALSE. "
*sigh* no it doesn't, it makes the docterine of incarnation right. The docterine includes those verses.

"en I said "except for Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8" I was only being careful when I said that there is NO verse in the Bible that says "

No, you where saying that in order for christ not to be God I willing admit I have to cut out verses of my bible.
 
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barryrob

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Friends,

I have been made to BELIEVE that the Bible is the WORD of God and "All Scripture is given by INSPIRATION of God, and is PROFITABLE for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

Thus, I BELIEVE that ALL verses are TRUE. However, if there are verses that APPEAR (because of interpretation) to contradict OTHER verses, I follow what apostle Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 2:13 and COMPARE Scriptures to arrive at the TRUE interpretation.

Now, gioing to the subject at hand. IF Jesus is God, can these statements be true?

Apostle John wrote that "NO ONE has EVER seen God at ANY time" (John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12). Yet we know that apostle John and about 500 others (1 Cor. 15:6) SAW Jesus during his lifetime and when he ASCENDED to heaven (Acts 1:11). Was John LYING when John said "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time?

Apostle John wrote that EVERYTHING he SAW and HEARD are TRUE (John 21:24). He HEARD Jesus SAY he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Did John TRULY hear Jesus SAY John 8:40 and John 17:3 or was Jesus LYING when he said he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God?

Apostle John HEARD Jesus say that God is SPIRIT (John 4:24). Did John TRULY hear Jesus say this or was Jesus LYING?

Apostle John HEARD from Mary Magdalene that Jesus calls them BROTHERS and to tel them that he (Jesus) is ASCENDING to HIS Father who is ALSO our Father and to HIS God who is ALSO our God (John 20:17). Did John HEAR Mary corectly or was Mary or Jesus LYING?

Apostle Luke wrote that he HEARD Jesus say that a SPIRIT does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39). Did apostle Luke TRULY hear Jesus say this or was Jesus LYING?

Apostle Luke wrote that he SAW Jesus ATE broiled fish AFTER God raised him from the dead. Did apostle Luke TRULY see Jesus EATING broiled fish or was he LYING?

As you can see my friends, the doctrine that Jesus is GOD makes the authors of the Bible OR Jesus LIARS! And if we say EITHER of them is a LIAR, then we are telling God that He is a LIAR because the Bible is God's word.

Does anyone here think this is good for the soul?

Ed


Jesus is not God as he has been seen by humans:-

If ONLY the TRUE GOD can bear the name Jehovah, Deut 6:4 says "Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah", and Exodus 6:3 says Jehovah APPEARED as GOD ALMIGHTY to Abraham in Genesis 18 as a man, how and why would you deny that Jehovah God Almighty could and did appear as a man, and die for our sins in the Christian Greek Scriptures?


But what else do the Christian Greek Scriptures say in this subject?

As you said before the any Biblical statement needs to be viewed on the basis of what the Whole or related texts say about any point as it is all “inspired of God”, here we do agree.

So like situations in the Bible to where God appeared to men, e.g.:-

A) Did Gideon talk to Jehovah God in person?


JUDGES Ch. 6

11 Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Oph´rah, which belonged to Jo´ash the Abi-ez´rite, while Gid´e·on his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Mid´i·an. 12 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him and said to him: “Jehovah is with you, you valiant, mighty one.” 13 At this Gid´e·on said to him: “Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, and where are all his wonderful acts that our fathers related to us, saying, ‘Was it not out of Egypt that Jehovah brought us up?’ And now Jehovah has deserted us, and he gives us into the palm of Mid´i·an.” 14 Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: “Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Mid´i·an’s palm. Do I not send you?” 15 In turn he said to him: “Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel? Look! My thousand is the least in Ma·nas´seh, and I am the smallest in my father’s house.” 16 But Jehovah said to him: “Because I shall prove to be with you, and you will certainly strike down Mid´i·an as if one man.”
17 At this he said to him: “If, now, I have found favor in your eyes, you must also perform a sign for me that you are the one speaking with me. 18 Do not, please, move away from here until I come to you and I have brought out my gift and set it before you.” Accordingly he said: “I, for my part, shall keep sitting here until you return.” 19 And Gid´e·on went in and proceeded to make ready a kid of the goats and an e´phah of flour as unfermented cakes. The meat he put in the basket, and the broth he put in the cooking pot, after which he brought it out to him under the big tree and served it.
20 The angel of the [true] God now said to him: “Take the meat and the unfermented cakes and set them on the big rock there, and pour out the broth.” At that he did so. 21 Then Jehovah’s angel thrust out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unfermented cakes, and fire began to ascend out of the rock and to consume the meat and the unfermented cakes. As for Jehovah’s angel, he vanished from his sight. 22 Consequently Gid´e·on realized that it was Jehovah’s angel.
At once Gid´e·on said: “Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!” 23 But Jehovah said to him: “Peace be yours. Do not fear. You will not die.” 24 So Gid´e·on built an altar there to Jehovah, and it continues to be called Je·ho´vah-sha´lom down to this day. It is yet in Oph´rah of the Abi-ez´rites.


B) Did Moses talk to Jehovah God in person?
Exodus Ch. 3
1 “And Moses became a shepherd of the flock of Jeth´ro, the priest of Mid´i·an, whose son-in-law he was. While he was driving the flock to the west side of the wilderness, he came at length to the mountain of the [true] God, to Ho´reb. 2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed. 3 At this Moses said: “Let me just turn aside that I may inspect this great phenomenon, as to why the thornbush is not burnt up.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” 5 Then he said: “Do not come near here. Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 And he went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses concealed his face, because he was afraid to look at the [true] God. 7 And Jehovah added: “Unquestionably I have seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their outcry as a result of those who drive them to work; because I well know the pains they suffer. 8 And I am proceeding to go down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a land good and spacious, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the locality of the Ca´naan·ites and the Hit´tites and the Am´or·ites and the Per´iz·zites and the Hi´vites and the Jeb´u·sites. 9 And now, look! the outcry of the sons of Israel has come to me, and I have seen also the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 And now come and let me send you to Phar´aoh, and you bring my people the sons of Israel out of Egypt.”
11 However, Moses said to the [true] God: “Who am I that I should go to Phar´aoh and that I have to bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?” 12 To this he said: “Because I shall prove to be with you, and this is the sign for you that it is I who have sent you: After you have brought the people out of Egypt, YOU people will serve the [true] God on this mountain.”

ACTS Ch. 7
30 “And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si´nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush. 31 Now when Moses saw it he marveled at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice came, 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’ Seized with trembling, Moses did not dare to investigate further.

C) Did Moses see to Jehovah God?
11 And Jehovah spoke to Moses face to face, just as a man would speak to his fellow. When he returned to the camp, his minister Joshua, the son of Nun, as attendant, would not withdraw from the midst of the tent.

20 And he added: “You are NOT able to see my face, because NO MAN may see me and yet live.”

So if God says Man CANNOT see Him Then it must be TRUE!

So then who did Moses see and speak with, no need to guess, the Bible tells us it was God’s messengers, the Angels, see below:-

Acts 7:53
YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.”

Acts 7:38 This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Si´nai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give YOU.

Galatians 3:19 Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Hebrews 2:2 For if the word* spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice;
*Law

As the Holy Scriptures states that Almighty God cannot be seen, see below:-

1 John 4:12 At NO TIME has anyone beheld God.

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

Now this is an important statement in our discussion, “NO MAN has seen God at ANY time” as this must include Abraham otherwise it is untrue, and that cannot be so can it?

John 5:37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure.”

John 6:46 “Jesus said “Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father.””

If the Bible says that NO man at ANY time has or can see God then this must be true as it is statement “inspired of God”.

Then Abraham as with Moses & Gideon must have seen & talked with Jehovah’s angelic messengers, which are addressed as Jehovah, because that represented him, they spoke for God, as in Moses & Gideon’s case.
 
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