Originally posted by LouisBooth
Well if you look at Christ's statements in the Acts recount of Christ's fufillment of Scripture we see that in chapter 13 verse 32 "We tell you the good news. What God promised our fathers he has fufilled for us, their childer, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Pslam : "You are my Son' today I have become your Father." It goes on to quote more passages but I think this one is pretty key. It shows that the Son refered to in the passage in Pslams 2 was indeed the Christ.
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Nobody denies that the son referred to in Psalm 2 is Jesus. "
*chuckles..really ed?
I just answered your question
"If you were a Israelite who lived 200 years BEFORE Christ was born and you were reading Psalm 2, would you have imagined that the one speaking is another God or a PART of the God he was referring to? "
the answer was yes
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Please show us where in Psalm 2 gives you the idea that another God was speaking to God. "
I used Pslams 2 to show you that you 1. misunderstand the title of Christ that is "Son of God" and also that all authority is to Christ and he rules. that's God's position. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, says I and a duck are one. then guess what? Its a duck.
All you have to prove your belief that Jesus is God are FALSE assumptions and FALSE interpretations.
Jesus PERFORMED miracles but that does mean he is God. The Bible teaches that it was God who performed these miracles THROUGH him (Acts 2:22).
Jesus FORGAVE sins but it does NOT make him God. God GAVE him the authority to forgive sins ON EARTH (Mark 2:10).
Jesus will JUDGE the world but that does NOT men he is God. God ORDAINED him to do so (Acts 17:31).
Jesus is our SAVIOR but it does NOT mean he is God. God MADE him SAVIOR (Acts 5:31).
You THINK according to the basic principles of the world and NOT according to Christ. This was what apostle Paul warned Christians against (Col. 2:8).
Ed
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"All you have to prove your belief that Jesus is God are FALSE assumptions and FALSE interpretations.
"
* LouisBooth chuckles
If you say so ed, I have verses that plainly say jesus is God by words and by actions.
"You THINK according to the basic principles of the world and NOT according to Christ. This was what apostle Paul warned Christians against "
This is your exact problem ed. right after Paul says this he then makes a very important theological statement saying Jesus is God..fully. You seem to miss that.
No,I didn't miss that Louis.
Neither did I miss 1 Cor. 8:6 where apostle Paul wrote that for him and the Corinthian Christians, there is ONLY ONE God and that ONLY ONE God is the FATHER - NOT THE son.
Neither did I miss Acts 17:31 where apostle Paul wrote that God has appointed a day by which He will judge the world... by the MAN whom He has ordained..."
And neither did I miss 1 Tim. 2:5 where apostle Paul wrote that there is ONLY ONE mediator between God and men, that MAN Christ Jesus.
Seems to me, you are only interested in those verses that "unstable and untaught persons TWIST to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16).
You don't seem to realize Louis that ACCORDING to Christ himself, he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God.
Ed
Originally posted by LouisBooth
Torah, its pretty clear you don't understand the title Son of God. Do some research on it and you will see it doesn't not limit Christ to be just a man. In fact it more then ever proves he is God.
Where did you get the notion that Jesus' title Son of God more than ever proves that he is God? When did Jesus ACQUIRE the title Son of God Louis? Was Jesus Son of God BEFORE he was born or AFTER he was born?/color]
Ed, I've debated this long with you, showed you the verses that clearly say Christ is God.
You haven't shown me any verse that "CLEARLY" says Jesus is God, except Isaiah 9:6 which is EITHER an UNFULFILLED prophecy or a MISTRANSLATION and Heb. 1:8 which was lifted from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. BTW, how do you define "CLEAR?"
Do I think he was a man? YES! so those verses line up with incarnation. He was also God, that's the part you tend to leave out and in doing so have to cut verses out of your bible.
Show me the verses that you say I cut out of my Bible. You say these verses "CLEARLY" say that Jesus is God. Prove it!
In another post, I talked about someone who talks to an UNSEEN being in the middle of a busy street, OBLIVIOUS of people around him. Should I believe him if he comes to me and tell me that the person he was talking to was Pres. Bush?
Wouldn't I be called crazy for spending even 30 seconds with such person? What do you "SEE" my friend?
Ed
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Where did you get the notion that Jesus' title Son of God more than ever proves that he is God? "
If you had read Pslams 2 when I told you you woud get it.
I have read Psalm 2 and I could NOT find a verse which tells me that the title Son of God more than ever proves that Jesus is God.
ed col 2:9 clearly shows it as does John chapter 1.
Col. 2:9 does NOT clearly say that Jesus is God. And neither does John chapter 1. It is your own PERSONAL interpretation that makes Jesus God.
"You say these verses "CLEARLY" say that Jesus is God. Prove it! "
I have ed, I posted numerous amounts of verses to you and you always just shurg them off and say whatever.
Aside from Is. 9:6 which is a prophecy that was NOT totally fulfilled and Heb. 1:8 which was lifted from a MISTRANSLATED version Psalm 45:6, please show us one verse that "CLEARLY" says, Jesus is God.
Ed
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I have read Psalm 2 and I could NOT find a verse which tells me that the title Son of God more than ever proves that Jesus is God. "
Well ed, if you read it then what does the title Son of signify biblically? It DOESN'T signify a biological relationship
Just because "the title Son of God DOESN'T signify a biological relationship" is NOT proof "more than ever" that Jesus is God.
Your FALSE belief that the title Son of God proves more than ever that Jesus is God is based on:
1) your FALSE assumption that "since the title Son of God DOESN'T signify biological relationship," then Jesus MUST be God.
2) your REJECTION of John 8:40 where Jesus CALLED himself a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus REVEALED the FATHER as the ONLY true God.
The FACT is, whatever meaning you want to ascribe to the title "Son of God" the TRUTH remains that Jesus is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God.
"It is your own PERSONAL interpretation that makes Jesus God. "
*sigh* whatever you say ed. I prefer to read the text, not ignore it. It says clearly Jesus is the Godhead in body (ie human) form. IE incarnation. John 1 says God=Logos which =Jesus therefore God=Jesus. Ignore the text all you want though, you always do.
Except for Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8 which are not accurate translations, where else can we CLEARLY read that Jesus is God? I don't see the WORD identified as Jesus in John 1:1. Do you?
Isn't it possible that it is ONLY your mind that "SEES" these "CLEAR" passages that say Jesus is God? Isn't that SIMILAR to someone talking to an UNSEEN being in the middle of a busy street, OBLIVIOUS to everyone around him?
I'm sure you have SEEN these kind of people and you know what they are, don't you?
Ed
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Just because "the title Son of God DOESN'T signify a biological relationship" is NOT proof "more than ever" that Jesus is God. "
*chuckles* Ed you really don't know a think about context do you? Let me sum up what has been said
Ed: christ can't be God because his title is "son of" therefore a "son" can't be a "dad"
Louis: the title son of doesn't imply a biological relation ship
Ed: yes it does
Louis: read pslams 2
Ed: well this doesn't imply Jesus is God
Louis: I was showing you your reasons for saying he isn't
God are wrong. YOu misunderstand the title
This exchange of posts NEVER happened. You are only showing how a Trinitarian mind works. I NEVER said,
"christ can't be God because his title is "son of" therefore a "son" can't be a "dad"
Also, I NEVER said that the "title of Son IMPLIES a biological relationship."
Now if you wanna see how it proves he is..just think about it. If I have all the power and authority God does, am I not God?
You think like that morning star who thought he was God because of all the qualities God GAVE him. He deserved to be thrown out of heaven.
Jesus said that all authority were GIVEN to him in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18). Who GAVE him the authority Louis?
"2) your REJECTION of John 8:40 where Jesus CALLED himself a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus REVEALED the FATHER as the ONLY true God. "
*sigh* I don't reject that verse. You do. I say Christ was a man, but not JUST a man.
You say I reject these verses. You really are something Louis. How can you say this when I have been repeating over and ovr that Jesus is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God? My, my, you sound more like a 4-year old as we talk abouyt the Trinity!
Other verses you reject are
col 2:9, the whole 1st chapter of John, Several statements Christ makes like the father and I are one, Places where Jesus shows he is God (like Luke 5) and pretty much anything Paul says about Christ.
*laughs* anytime you say the words "except for" it means you have a hole in your arugment and you're probably wrong ed. In this case you are.
I don't reject any verse that is ACCURATELY translated and does NOT contradict any TRUTH utterred by Jesus. A MISINTERPRETATION of Col. 2:9 makes John 8:40 and John 17:3 FALSE.
When I said "except for Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8" I was only being careful when I said that there is NO verse in the Bible that says "Jesus is God" because these MISTRANMSLATED verses say he is. This does NOT mean that my rgument has a hole. You are merely grasping at straws my friend.
Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8 are MISTRANSLATIONS that MAKE Jesus a LIAR! I REJECT these verses because they are MISTRANSLATIONS.
Ed
Friends,
I have been made to BELIEVE that the Bible is the WORD of God and "All Scripture is given by INSPIRATION of God, and is PROFITABLE for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
Thus, I BELIEVE that ALL verses are TRUE. However, if there are verses that APPEAR (because of interpretation) to contradict OTHER verses, I follow what apostle Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 2:13 and COMPARE Scriptures to arrive at the TRUE interpretation.
Now, gioing to the subject at hand. IF Jesus is God, can these statements be true?
Apostle John wrote that "NO ONE has EVER seen God at ANY time" (John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12). Yet we know that apostle John and about 500 others (1 Cor. 15:6) SAW Jesus during his lifetime and when he ASCENDED to heaven (Acts 1:11). Was John LYING when John said "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time?
Apostle John wrote that EVERYTHING he SAW and HEARD are TRUE (John 21:24). He HEARD Jesus SAY he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Did John TRULY hear Jesus SAY John 8:40 and John 17:3 or was Jesus LYING when he said he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God?
Apostle John HEARD Jesus say that God is SPIRIT (John 4:24). Did John TRULY hear Jesus say this or was Jesus LYING?
Apostle John HEARD from Mary Magdalene that Jesus calls them BROTHERS and to tel them that he (Jesus) is ASCENDING to HIS Father who is ALSO our Father and to HIS God who is ALSO our God (John 20:17). Did John HEAR Mary corectly or was Mary or Jesus LYING?
Apostle Luke wrote that he HEARD Jesus say that a SPIRIT does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39). Did apostle Luke TRULY hear Jesus say this or was Jesus LYING?
Apostle Luke wrote that he SAW Jesus ATE broiled fish AFTER God raised him from the dead. Did apostle Luke TRULY see Jesus EATING broiled fish or was he LYING?
As you can see my friends, the doctrine that Jesus is GOD makes the authors of the Bible OR Jesus LIARS! And if we say EITHER of them is a LIAR, then we are telling God that He is a LIAR because the Bible is God's word.
Does anyone here think this is good for the soul?
Ed