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If Jesus is God, can these verses be true?

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by edpobre, Feb 6, 2002.

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Friends,

    I have been made to BELIEVE that the Bible is the WORD of God and "All Scripture is given by INSPIRATION of God, and is PROFITABLE for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

    Thus, I BELIEVE that ALL verses are TRUE. However, if there are verses that APPEAR (because of interpretation) to contradict OTHER verses, I follow what apostle Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 2:13 and COMPARE Scriptures to arrive at the TRUE interpretation.

    Now, gioing to the subject at hand. IF Jesus is God, can these statements be true?

    Apostle John wrote that "NO ONE has EVER seen God at ANY time" (John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12). Yet we know that apostle John and about 500 others (1 Cor. 15:6) SAW Jesus during his lifetime and when he ASCENDED to heaven (Acts 1:11). Was John LYING when John said "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time?

    Apostle John wrote that EVERYTHING he SAW and HEARD are TRUE (John 21:24). He HEARD Jesus SAY he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Did John TRULY hear Jesus SAY John 8:40 and John 17:3 or was Jesus LYING when he said he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God?

    Apostle John HEARD Jesus say that God is SPIRIT (John 4:24). Did John TRULY hear Jesus say this or was Jesus LYING?

    Apostle John HEARD from Mary Magdalene that Jesus calls them BROTHERS and to tel them that he (Jesus) is ASCENDING to HIS Father who is ALSO our Father and to HIS God who is ALSO our God (John 20:17). Did John HEAR Mary corectly or was Mary or Jesus LYING?

    Apostle Luke wrote that he HEARD Jesus say that a SPIRIT does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39). Did apostle Luke TRULY hear Jesus say this or was Jesus LYING?

    Apostle Luke wrote that he SAW Jesus ATE broiled fish AFTER God raised him from the dead. Did apostle Luke TRULY see Jesus EATING broiled fish or was he LYING?

    As you can see my friends, the doctrine that Jesus is GOD makes the authors of the Bible OR Jesus LIARS! And if we say EITHER of them is a LIAR, then we are telling God that He is a LIAR because the Bible is God's word.

    Does anyone here think this is good for the soul?

    Ed
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
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    I knew you would be posting sooner or later. heheh welcome aboard Ed. Now back to the topic at hand.

    Yes Ed Jesus calls himself a man. BUT by man it is my interpritation that he is MAN in the body, he can bleed, hunger, and die. BUT in SPIRIT he was GOD not a man born of sin after all he was born from Devine Nature.

    He was the ultimate sacrifice to give to his children. What Father would not die for his son? Do we not hold such a great place with him that he would give of him self for us?

    And to answer your post over at KT God can not be confined in a box thus just a part of God was in the body of Christ.

    consider it in the terms of a modernday heart transplant. The heart is not yours but your body uses it as if it was yours.

    John did not lie, it is true no one has seen God in his true form (insert from the NASB STudy Bible re: John 1:18 pg 1516)

    "the only begotten God. An explicit declaration of Christ's deity (see vv. 1,14 and notes; 3:16). has made Him known. Sometimes in the OT people are said to have seen God (eg Ex 24:9-11) But we are also told that o one can see God and live (EX33:20) Therefore, since no human being can see God as He really is, those who saw God saw Him in a form He took on Himself temporarily for the occasion. Now , however, Christ has made Him known."

    Jesus is not a seperate entietly but God and Jesus (after death) are one in the same. When Jesus said you are to worship the one and only Father. You should worship the Lord our God, not this temple of Flesh the God choose to wear, for if you worship the body of christ are you not worshiping an idol in place of the Father God? Now dont go saying i said dont worship Jesus BUT God said listen to my son and Jesus said what you ask for in my name will be done. We dont pray to Jesus we pray to the Father (in the name of Jesus Christ) and all we ask for we ask it in the name of Jesus Christ.

    All of John 1 but more importantly

    John 1:1
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    John 1:14
    "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
     
  3. FOMWatts<><

    FOMWatts<>< Follower of the Way

    589
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    YEP YEP...I agree ;)

    <><
     
  4. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    The key to Edpobre:

    "He HEARD Jesus SAY he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)."

    Just Fyi to speed things yp here ;) Ed sees this verse as proof thast Jesus is not God.

    The thing is, this verse doe snot deny Jesus' Divinity at all.

    The Trinity Doctrine agrees that Jesus is a man and agrees that the Father is the Only true God.

    What this verse is not saying, that Ed would have you think it is saying is that Only the Father is the only true God.
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    ZoneChaos,

    You wrote:
    Q: WHO is the ONLY true God?
    A: The FATHER.

    Q: WHO is the FATHER?
    A: He is the ONLY true God?

    Q: WHO is Jesus?
    A: Jesus is the SON.

    Q: Is the SON the ONLY true God?
    A: No! The FATHER is the ONLY true God!

    CONCLUSION: ONLY the FATHER is the ONLY true God!

    I challenge anyone to come up with questions similar to these based on John 17:3 that would make BOTH the Father and the Son the ONLY true God.

    Ed
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    OptimusP,

    You wroter:
    Your INTERPRETATION that Jesus is MAN in the body BUT he was God in SPIRIT is not only UNBIBLICAL but ABSURD as well. When Jesus said, "But now you seek to kill ME a MAN..." was he referring ONLY to his body? Wasn't he referring to his WHOLE being which is composed of body, soul and spirit?

    You wrote:
    Are you telling us that Jesus is the FATHER and the SON rolled into ONE God? Your belief is FALSE! Jesus commanded his disciples NOT to call anyone on earth FATHER for ONE is the FATHER, He who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9). At that time, Jesus was on earth and the FATHER was in heaven.

    If Jesus is the FATHER, who was the FATHER that he was praying to in the garden and on the cross? Was Jesus PRETENDING to pray to someone ither than himself?

    You wrote:
    That is NOT how the word of God is taught. You should learn from apoistle Paul and follow what he teaches in 1 Cor. 2:13.

    You wrote:
    How easily you can be deceived my friend! Don't you know that that insert is NOT part of the word of God? Anybody can do that to make the Bible fit their FALSE doctrine. So Christ is NOT the true form of God since no one has ever seen the true form of God.

    You wrote:
    Your belief is NOT based on the Word of God my friend. You have NO basis for what you believe in. Col. 3:1 says Christ is sitting beside God. Rev. 5:13 shows the Lord God Almighty AND the Lamb being worshipped together.

    You wrote:
    So you are saying that the FATHER is the SPIRIT that resides in the physical body of Jesus, the Son. So when you pray to the FATHER, you are in effect praying to the SPIRIT of Jesus and you ask in the name of the physical body of Jesus.

    So your belief is that Jesus was actually praying to himself. But why did he lift his eyes to heaven when he prayed to the FATHER (John 17:1)? Don't tell me his SPIRIT was in heaven but his body was on earth.

    Doesn't that tell you that the Jesus who walked on this earth is NOT God?

    Ed
     
  7. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Q: WHO is the ONLY true God?
    A: The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit

    Q: WHO is the FATHER?
    A: He is the ONLY true God?

    Q: WHO is the Holy Spirit?
    A: He is the ONLY true God

    Q: WHO is Jesus?
    A: Jesus is the SON.

    Q: WHO is the SON?
    A: He is the ONLY true God

    Q: Is the FATHER the ONLY true God?
    A: Yes.

    Q: Is the SON the ONLY true God?
    A: Yes.

    Q: Is the HOLY SPIRIT the ONLY true God?
    A: Yes.

    Q: Is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit the same God?
    A: Yes.
     
  8. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Niether. He was referring to His human nature.

    NO.. Jesus is the Son not both of them. But both the Son and the Father are God. They are seperate unto themselves and at the same time are the same God.

    Jesus spirtual Nature was not the Father but the Son. Jesus was a human nature and the Son was the Divine nature. Jesus was not praying ot the Son (praying to himself), He was praying to the Father. The Father was in Heaven, when Jesus was praying to him.
     
  9. Schrack

    Schrack the Baptist

    18
    +1
    Edpobre, you wrote:

    "Apostle John wrote that "NO ONE has EVER seen God at ANY time" (John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12). Yet we know that apostle John and about 500 others (1 Cor. 15:6) SAW Jesus during his lifetime and when he ASCENDED to heaven (Acts 1:11). Was John LYING when John said "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time?"

    Does this apply to Abraham, to whom the Lord appeared by the oaks of Mamre as three men? Does it apply to Hagar, to whom the Lord appeared as the "angel of the Lord."? Or does it apply to Jacob, to whom the Lord appeared as a man, and of whom had said "I have seen God face to face"?

    You see, your problem is that while what John said is entirely true, for no man has ever looked upon God, you neglect the fact that God has appeared to men in a form that veils his true substance. Therefore, the verses you quoted above do not in any way prove that Jesus was not God at all. If anything, they prove how God made himself manifest in human flesh so that men could look upon him, and they prove how you have failed to compare and rightly divide all the Scriptures in order to come out with the correct doctrine.

    Don't you ever tire of trying to prove that which is not true?

    SchracktheBaptist
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Simple version : Yes. Just to look at the first one. you say no one has seen the father. Jesus himself said if you have seen him then you have seen the father :)
     
  11. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    ZoneChaos,

    You wrote:
    Is your conscience so seared that you don't SEE that what you are saying is BLATANTLY opposed to what the John 17:3 actually says?

    Let me remind you my friend that ADDING to the word of God will SURELY lead you and anyone who believes you INTO the lake of fire.

    In John 17:1, Jesus is SEEN lifting up his eyes to heaven and was HEARD saying, "FATHER, the hour has come..." And in John 17:3, Jesus was HEARD saying, "....that they may know YOU (obvoiously referring to the Father ALONE), the ONLY true God..."

    Q: WHO was Jesus, the SON talking to?
    A: The FATHER.

    Q: Was Jesus talking to anyone else besides the Father?
    A: NO! Jesus was talking to the Father ALONE.

    Q: Was Jesus part of the Father whom he was praying to?
    A: NO! The Father was in heaven, Jesus was on earth.

    Q: Was the FATHER and the SON separate and distinct?
    A: YES!

    Q: Is Jesus, the SON, the ONLY true God?
    A: NO!

    Q: Is Jesus, the SON, a true God?
    A: NO! The SON is a MAN (John 8:40).

    Q: Is Jesus, the SON, a God?
    A: NO! If he is god to anyone, he is a FALSE god or an idol.

    Ed
     
  12. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Hasn't anyone taught you that "in the past, God SPOKE to our fathers by the PROPHETS has in these last days SPOKE to US by His SON..." (Hebrews 1:1-2)?

    Don't you believe that God COMMANDS people to LISTEN to His Son, Jesus (Matt. 17:5)?

    Don't you believe that whatever Jesus SAID was COMMANDED of him by God - what to say and what to speak (John 12:49)?

    Don't you believe that everything that John wrote were true (John 21:24)?

    Don't you believe that John 1:1 and John 1:14 are inspired WORD of God (2 Tim. 3:16)?

    Do you still THINK that what I am trying to prove is not true?

    Ed
     
  13. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    If I told you that "if you have seen me you have seen my son...":

    ...have you ACTUALLY seen my son?

    ...would you know how my son ACTUALLY looks like?

    ...do I BECOME my SON?

    Have you tired of using your brain my friend?

    Ed
     
  14. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    First, what did I say that adds to the word of God? I do not think you can quote me.

    Second, you add to the word of God here: "obvoiously referring to the Father ALONE". The verse does not say that, and yet to add that to its meaning. So, by your thoughts, we are bothing going to burn, eh?

    Correct.

    Correct.

    Correct.

    Correct.

    Incorrect.

    Correct.

    Give you half credit here.

    5.5 / 7 isn't bad...

    Let's look at the ones you missed.

    Is Jesus, the Son, the Only true God? Yes He is. Jesus' Divinity is very apparent in scripture, and is not denied anywhere in scripture.

    Is Jesus the Son, a god? No, Jesus the Son is the God. But He is God, thus half credit. :)
     
  15. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
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    Ed

    It is a fact that the Biblical record states all scripture is inspired of God. No doubt about it.

    Likewise Facts: All scripture is profitable...scripture is provided so that we may be made complete (only one part of the armour of God - all the parts are needed to make our readiness complete.)

    Does anything in that passage show that everything recorded in the Bible is scripture - inspired by God?

    Now - Jesus said, according to John 6:46 that no man has seen the FATHER at any time - not that no man has seen God. Exodus 24:9 - 11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel : and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God , and did eat and drink.

    John said that no man has seen God at any time. We know this is incorrect - Or is the record of Exodus 24:9-11 incorrect? Or is the God of Israel somehow not the same god who said you shall have no other gods before me? Perhaps John simply used the word God, expecting that he would be understood to mean the Father, though not meaning the God of Israel? Things become VERY confusing if there is no truth to the doctrine of the trinity.


    Luk 8:52 - 53 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. There is a problem with this account. The author says that the people KNEW that the child was dead - not that they believed she was dead. So, according to the author, the child was dead. Jesus said she was not dead. Who to believe????
     
  16. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
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    Let me make this statement befor i continue. I dont have all the answers i wish i did, but just about everyday i read the Bible, and i listen to what everyone else has to say; then i try to make a decision. Many people have posted and said good things that make alot of sense. and i hope i am not so far out of line on all of this. after all Ed your the only one that really replys to my posts .




    I dont think he was refering to his whole being.

    Why do you put a limit on to what God can do or a limit on His power? Why could he not be in 2 places at once?

    at no point did i ever say it was the word of God. the quote from the book was of facts from the Bible itself and supports its facts by passages.

    Could you not see it? Or do you choose not to also accept the OT as part of the Bible?

    In how many diffearnt ways must God apear before you that you can say this one time he apeared in his true form but all other times was just a random apearance in a randome being.

    This is honestly one thing i dont have an answer for yet. I dont understand how you can sit beside yourself.

    Did Jeses not say (to the effect of) that all you ask for ask for it in my name adn the Father will grant it? (i dont have the exact quote at the current moment)

    Again the Spirt that was in Jesus was JUST A PART OF GOD not all of GOD. (think of it like modernday cloneing)
    Why woudl you not lift your head to the heavens when talking to God. Does he not Sit on the Highest thron? If he came down to show man how to live and what to do and how to be saved and to most importantly believe in the Lord our God why would he not do what he is telling us we must do? The Father (God) sets the example for the son (mankind). Havent you heard of the proverb "monkey see monkey do"
     
  17. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    In the beginning was the word and the word was (close beside/toward/with) God and GOD WAS THE WORD.

    How can Jesus be beside God and at the same time be God? I don't know, but John 1 states that is exactly the position that exists.

    The question therefore is not whether the "ambiguous" texts can be addressed, but whether the direct and absolute statements of those passages which state Jesus is God can be undermined. And that can only be done if passages exist in contradiction in plain black and white.

    Jesus is at the right hand of the Father - said to prove that Jesus is not God. God was the Word and the Word was close beside God answers the objection - not in showing how it is, but in showing that it is. The interpretation that Jesus cannot be God because he is beside God is shown to be an invalid concept.

    Next objection?
     
  18. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

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    exactly, i used this passage in one of the other ed topics its it hard to understand but i will take it as it is written.

    In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God.
    And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
     
  19. Schrack

    Schrack the Baptist

    18
    +1
    Edpobre,

    Obviously, you either missed my point altogether or you just ignored it and decided to ramble about nothing that didn't even address what I wrote. But I suppose that kind of response is to be expected when you do not know what to do with the truth.

    John said that no man has seen God. This is true, at least in regard to seeing God in his true substance. Not even Moses was permitted to see that.

    Men have seen God, however, through a veiled form; that is to say, God assumed the appearance of a man or men (called a "theophany") so that men could look upon him. Hagar, Abraham, and Jacob all saw God this way.

    Consequently, the mere fact that men could see Jesus is absolutely no proof that he was not God come in the flesh. If anything, it means God veiled his true substance by becoming fully human, which is a step further than a theophany. In other words, the Word, who was God, became flesh, and men did see God in Jesus Christ.

    But had you rightly divided the Scriptures, you would have known this.

    SchracktheBaptist
     
  20. Schrack

    Schrack the Baptist

    18
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    Thunderchild,

    Jesus is at the right hand of the Father - said to prove that Jesus is not God. God was the Word and the Word was close beside God answers the objection - not in showing how it is, but in showing that it is. The interpretation that Jesus cannot be God because he is beside God is shown to be an invalid concept.

    This is one of the best points I've seen in quite a while.

    SchracktheBaptist
     
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