If I were the Devil - from 1965

NightHawkeye

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People every generation since the disciples have "observed the obvious" to say that the prophecies fit specific instances in their times and that the return of Jesus was imminent. What makes your "obvious observations" any better than theirs?
There are two proper nouns ... serving as precise markers ... in Revelation. You may perhaps be aware of Wormwood and Abaddon/Apollyon. I'm not aware that either was potentially fulfilled prior to the end of the twentieth century.

Chernobyl translates to Wormwood. I've researched that extensively, btw. It gave me an opportunity to brush up on the Russian I had studied in college. Saddam translates to Abaddon/Apollyon.

Curiously, these two markers also closely bracket the dissolution of the USSR.

The Book of Revelation Is Happening NOW! You Must See This! The 7 Trumpets Are Blowing! - YouTube

Here's a little more on Wormwood from a thread I started almost two years ago:
What's in a name?. Happy names like rose and daisy can be found in streets, towns and cities everywhere – regardless of language. Even non-flowering plant names like fern, oak and cat-tails are common. Unpleasant names like mugwort and wormwood are much less common. Such names are rarely used except when negative connotations are deliberate, such as Wormwood Scrubs prison in England.

"Chernobyl Fallout: Apocalyptic Tale" was published by the New York Times on July 25, 1986. Claiming Chernobyl translated to Wormwood, potentially making it the third trumpet prophecy of Revelation, Serge Schermann failed to substantiate his sources and his story was largely discredited.

Armed with a couple of years of prior Russian language study, I decided to pursue original sources and dig deeper into the matter recently. Here are the verifiable facts:

1) Chernobyl and chornobyl are Russian and Ukranian words meaning literally "black stalks", referring to artemisia vulgaris – four-foot high grassy plants known in English as mugwort or "common wormwood".
2) Chornobyl (Чорнобиль) was the Ukranian city lending its name to the reactor.
3) Wormwood, according to my 1984 (note this pre-dates the meltdown) Merriam-Webster Dictionary is Artemisia, esp. Artemisia absinthium. The definition explicitly encompasses all varieties of Artemisia.
4) Mugwort (artemisia vulgaris) is closely related to artemisia absinthium, both genetically and in physical appearance.
5) Curiously, mugwort was not listed in my Merriam-Webster dictionary of nearly 160,000 words, underscoring the fact that it is best known as "common wormwood".
6) Prior to 1986 both Russian and Ukranian dictionaries included wormwood as a secondary definition for chernobyl/chornobyl and many internet translators still translate chernobyl into wormwood.
7) Wormwood acquired its name because of its ability to act as a "de-wormer" (i.e., expelling intestinal worm infestations). The de-worming ability extends throughout various artemisia species.
8) Polyn' ("полин" in Ukrainian or "полын" in Russian) is the primary term in Russian for artemisia absinthium or wormwood.
9) Pelyněk černobýl is the Czech name for artemisia vulgaris (i.e., mugwort) and translates literally as wormwood vulgaris, thus helping to explain the relationship between and origins of both polyn' and chernobyl.
10) Perhaps the most observable difference between mugwort and wormwood is whether the stalks are green or whether the stalks are dark green.
11) Apsinthos (Aψινθος), the Greek word found in the earliest surviving Revelation manuscripts, means "bitter like wormwood". Although often used to describe artemisia absinthia, "wormwood" is not an exact literal translation.
12) Historical translations include "Bitter" from the 1969 Worldwide English New Testament and "Wormwood (footnote - that is, Bitter)" from the 1973, 1984 New International Version of the Bible. Both of these predate the Chernobyl meltdown.
13) The world's oldest surviving Bible, the Codex Sinaiticus (available online) uses the Greek name Apsinthion (Aψίνθιον), a broadly encompassing term meaning "of the nature of absinthia. (Note: Some claim there is evidence of this word having been changed from Apsinthos.)
14) Only one of the many apocalyptic events described in Revelation was assigned a proper noun as a name (an obscure name at that).

The facts indicate that Chernobyl is an accurate translation for the term Wormwood, as used in the third trumpet prophecy of Revelation, regardless of whether one translates from original manuscripts or English language texts. Counter-arguments claiming Chernobyl isn't a good translation fail when subjected to scrutiny.

One question needing to be answered though is: What are the odds that an obscure name used in the Bible just happens to match the name of the city where one of the worst man-made disasters in history occurred? The odds of a mere coincidence would seem to be, mathematically speaking, extremely remote.

A more substantive counter-argument is that the Chernobyl disaster doesn't fit the description given of the third trumpet prophecy. That argument loses merit though when one examines the passage critically. Although often interpreted as a literal star, asteroid or comet falling to earth, it's worth considering that the later fifth trumpet "star" is an obvious figurative star, thereby lending further credence to Chernobyl as the third trumpet prophecy.

15) As with English, both the Greek and Aramaic words for star have multiple meanings.
16) The Greek word ἀστήρ means not only star and famous, but also strewn over the sky - fitting terminology for the Chernobyl explosion and radioactive fallout which heavily contaminated thousands of square miles of land in the Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, much of which will be uninhabitable for thousands of years.
17) An ever-increasing body of evidence suggests that the New Testament may have been originally written in Aramaic (i.e., the language Mel Gibson used in "Passion of the Christ") rather than Greek. The Aramaic word for star, kwkb, can be both noun and verb - for example, to be made a star, an interesting association since that definition applies literally to what happened at Chernobyl.

Wormwood is one of the important clues in Revelation. It stands uniquely alone among the events of Revelation in that it was given a name. Though perhaps not a unique name, the unarguable fact is that the name Wormwood is one which is rarely used. Adding further unique identification is the fact that it is a proper noun rather than a common noun.
 
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SmellsLikeCurlyFries

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There are two proper nouns ... serving as precise markers ... in Revelation. You may perhaps be aware of Wormwood and Abaddon/Apollyon. I'm not aware that either was potentially fulfilled prior to the end of the twentieth century.

Chernobyl translates to Wormwood. I've researched that extensively, btw. It gave me an opportunity to brush up on the Russian I had studied in college. Saddam translates to Abaddon/Apollyon.

Curiously, these two markers also closely bracket the dissolution of the USSR

I respect your conclusions. It's obvious you've done a lot of extensive research into the matter, rather than just reading things like Left Behind or Jack van Impe and then running with it like most self-proclaimed eschatologists I've come across :thumbsup:

We ought to sit down one of these days and discuss what we've found regarding the end times ;)
 
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NightHawkeye

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I respect your conclusions. It's obvious you've done a lot of extensive research into the matter, rather than just reading things like Left Behind or Jack van Impe and then running with it like most self-proclaimed eschatologists I've come across :thumbsup:
LOL ... the only way to make the case with some people is to slog through the details. ;)

We ought to sit down one of these days and discuss what we've found regarding the end times ;)
Thought we had been. :)

Don't wait too long. :eek:
 
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Touma

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Good question :p

The OP just felt, to me, like OJ's book "If I did".

Now, I'm not saying I did it, but if I did, this is how I would have done it...


Now, I'm not saying that I am the prince of darkness wanting to take over the world, but if I were, this is how I would do it...


:p
 
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SmellsLikeCurlyFries

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The OP just felt, to me, like OJ's book "If I did".

Now, I'm not saying I did it, but if I did, this is how I would have done it...


Now, I'm not saying that I am the prince of darkness wanting to take over the world, but if I were, this is how I would do it...


:p

Hah! ^_^
 
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SmellsLikeCurlyFries

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LOL ... the only way to make the case with some people is to slog through the details. ;)

Wait wait wait, don't jump the gun. I didn't say I agreed ;)

Thought we had been. :)

I meant more in-depth. And we've more discussed your conclusions and I haven't once brought up mine :p
 
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NightHawkeye

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Archaeopteryx

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If i was the Devil....

I would convince a large segment of the population that they have been given Gods word, and to trust in this despite all evidences to the contrary. I would convince them that belief in things via faith is equal to belief in things based on witness and evidence. I would convince people to speak about the sanctity of life, while advocating war and destruction. I would convince the world that 10% of its population controlling 50% of the wealth is a good and natural thing, and for that same 10% to carry an equal burden back to society is unjust. I would convince my followers that a societal support of the downtrodden is tyranny. I would whisper that work should not be compensated, and that ownership and wealth is the only true measure of value in a society. I would denigrate knowledge as "elitism", and label inconvenient findings of science as myths. I would shroud the world in ignorance, while conferring the ignorant with unfettered confidence that their ignorant beliefs are unquestionable truth.

QFT.
 
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Wayte

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Exactly in accordance with prophecy, Wayte.
Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
There are only four such instances of red in the entire Bible. I posted the other two from Revelation already. This is the third. The fourth instance is in the Zechariah prophecies and overlaps with these as well.

As for the changes in society, and the ultimate evil gig, there is this about the red dragon:
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The devil always claims the high moral ground, Wayte ... as can be seen in the preceding Revelation verses ... just like Marxism, for the common good ...

The difficult part seems to be choosing good over evil. There is this hint though:
Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Pretty much ...
Posting scripture does not negate my point. Like I said, the whole thing is just a "get out of doubt free card." Anything supposedly "bad" that looks good to anyone with eyes is said to be work of the devil. And since he can make anything look good, being the great liar and all, that means people can't really trust their eyes. Gotta go check with their church before they decide on anything. It sounds like the sort of thing I'd set up if I wanted perfect control over people.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Posting scripture does not negate my point.
LOL ... I wasn't trying to negate your point, Wayte.

Here's what you said earlier:
So basically, if he were the devil, he'd fulfill the convenient ultimate evil gig so good Christian boys and girls could blame changes in society on him. Then pretend refusing progress gives them a moral high ground.

So basically what the devil has always done. got it.
I agreed with you about most of it ... though you're attempting to pigeon-hole all Christians with a very narrow characterization. I chose not to address that earlier though.

Like I said, the whole thing is just a "get out of doubt free card." Anything supposedly "bad" that looks good to anyone with eyes is said to be work of the devil. And since he can make anything look good, being the great liar and all, that means people can't really trust their eyes. Gotta go check with their church before they decide on anything. It sounds like the sort of thing I'd set up if I wanted perfect control over people.
So ... you really want to disagree with Paul Harvey's comments, but here you haven't given any specific disagreement. Instead, you characterize all Christians with an overly broad brush and lash out at them instead of Paul Harvey.

What exactly do you think Paul Harvey got wrong in his commentary here?
 
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Wayte

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LOL ... I wasn't trying to negate your point, Wayte.

Here's what you said earlier:

I agreed with you about most of it ... though you're attempting to pigeon-hole all Christians with a very narrow characterization. I chose not to address that earlier though.


So ... you really want to disagree with Paul Harvey's comments, but here you haven't given any specific disagreement. Instead, you characterize all Christians with an overly broad brush and lash out at them instead of Paul Harvey.

What exactly do you think Paul Harvey got wrong in his commentary here?

Oh, I don't think he got it wrong at all. I just summed it up in a lot less words. Heck, I can sum it up in just one: Boogeyman.

And ya, maybe I am lashing out a bit. I'll admit, I'm a bit testy lately, and the whole "devil" thing has always irked me.
 
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athenken

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Oh, I don't think he got it wrong at all. I just summed it up in a lot less words. Heck, I can sum it up in just one: Boogeyman.

And ya, maybe I am lashing out a bit. I'll admit, I'm a bit testy lately, and the whole "devil" thing has always irked me.

Yeah, the Devil does tend to irk people from time to time.
 
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Wayte

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Yeah, the Devil does tend to irk people from time to time.

I'm talking the concept of the devil. An ultimate evil that just conveniently happens to have his hands in everything. Homosexual thoughts? Devil tempting you. Feel like sleeping in on Sunday? Well then the devil wins. All logic pointing away form your faith? The devil is whispering evil in our ear, just ignore the thoughts and keep that faith runnin.
 
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NightHawkeye

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I'm talking the concept of the devil. An ultimate evil that just conveniently happens to have his hands in everything. Homosexual thoughts? Devil tempting you. Feel like sleeping in on Sunday? Well then the devil wins. All logic pointing away form your faith? The devil is whispering evil in our ear, just ignore the thoughts and keep that faith runnin.
The concept of Satan, the devil incarnate, is interesting all by itself. My personal perspective of the devil is not terribly different from your concept of Christianity, Wayte. :eek:

Good and evil are clearly stated in the Bible. Good promotes life. Evil leads to death.
Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
It's a simple concept ... reiterated in Christ's teachings.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
The struggle between good and evil is ongoing. Consider, for example, the nation's budget. It doesn't take much thought really to understand that massive deficit spending is a sure path to destruction ... therefore evil ... regardless of whether simple human desires push us toward that or whether some supernatural being nudges people. Either way, the result is disaster. Diligence, discipline and willingness to honestly assess fiscal matters is required to correct this abysmal state of affairs.
 
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athenken

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I'm talking the concept of the devil. An ultimate evil that just conveniently happens to have his hands in everything. Homosexual thoughts? Devil tempting you. Feel like sleeping in on Sunday? Well then the devil wins. All logic pointing away form your faith? The devil is whispering evil in our ear, just ignore the thoughts and keep that faith runnin.

How does the existence of the devil point away from faith, specifically faith in a savior? If anything it enhances it.
 
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Wayte

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How does the existence of the devil point away from faith, specifically faith in a savior? If anything it enhances it.

Sure, if you accept the idea of pure beings. But the idea of a being that is pure, whether pure good or pure evil, seems a little iffy. I suppose looking at it one way it does reaffirm it; one cannot exist without the other, so the devil does reaffirm the god. Of course, just how perfect a foil the devil is to god seems a bit suspect to me. Like I said, he's the sort of thing I'd concoct if I wanted control over people. Nothing like a clear "bad guy" to blame everything bad on, after all.
 
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athenken

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Sure, if you accept the idea of pure beings. But the idea of a being that is pure, whether pure good or pure evil, seems a little iffy. I suppose looking at it one way it does reaffirm it; one cannot exist without the other, so the devil does reaffirm the god. Of course, just how perfect a foil the devil is to god seems a bit suspect to me. Like I said, he's the sort of thing I'd concoct if I wanted control over people. Nothing like a clear "bad guy" to blame everything bad on, after all.

But you haven't clarified how the existence of a devil points away from faith. If anything it points toward it considering unless you are actually able to see the devil you have to have faith that it exists.

Are you from the school of thought that everything is just applied to a varying shades of gray rather than any kind of specific cases of back and white?
 
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Wayte

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But you haven't clarified how the existence of a devil points away from faith. If anything it points toward it considering unless you are actually able to see the devil you have to have faith that it exists.

Are you from the school of thought that everything is just applied to a varying shades of gray rather than any kind of specific cases of back and white?

Basically, yes I am. Which might be the whole disconnect here: the idea of two purely good/evil beings opposing each their, and having all cases of their specific alignment justified by themselves just doesn't jive with me here. I'll admit that, if it did then one would have an easier time seeing the devil as a strengthener of faith. But that's the whole point, the devil only does his literary job when one takes on faith that objective good and evil are indeed things. To an outsider like myself it just seems like a convenient scapegoat for any doubt one may have.
 
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