If I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose again am I permanently saved?

ToBeLoved

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However, you are trying so desperately to make it faith alone.

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

He is the author of those who OBEY Him. Faith + Works!
I just don't believe the Bible supports faith + works. Over and over it says 'by faith', 'in faith', 'through faith'.

The Bible even says that all our good works are like filthy rags, because none of us is good. We try to do better and be better, but when we do it it is a momentary decision we make to be good. If it does not reside deep, down in our hearts it is not lasting but only a fleeting thing when we make that decision.

God changes the heart and God's Word says that He will give us the desires of our hearts. Now if those desires of our heart are not so good, then what we get will not be so good and that is our fault because if we desire bad things and sin our hearts lead us in that direction. So our desires have to change, in our hearts.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Have you not read what happens to the sons of disobedience?

Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

I sure hope you aren't trying to deceive me. Paul says the wrath of God comes upon sons of disobedience. He also says if you are a son of disobedience, the prince of the power of the air (Satan) is working in you.
If you read Ephesians 2:2 in context we see that Paul is talking about who we were before Christ.

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 We all lived among them at one time in the cravings of our flesh, indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

The same thing in Ephesians 5:6 and Colosians . The chapter begins with telling us to be imitator's of Christ and then tells us what we were and not to become that again.

Ephesians 5:1-8
1
Be imitators of God, therefore, as beloved children, 2 and walk in love, just as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant sacrificial offering to God.

3 But among you, as is proper among the saints, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality or impurity or greed. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light,

Colossians 3:1-8
1
Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ, strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.b 7 When you lived among them, you also used to walk in these ways. 8 But now you must put aside all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your mouth.

In all these verses the sons of disobedience are people who are not saved. We have to look at the context of the verses.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I sure hope you aren't trying to deceive me. Paul says the wrath of God comes upon sons of disobedience. He also says if you are a son of disobedience, the prince of the power of the air (Satan) is working in you.
Do you really think I would be here quoting the Bible and putting it in context if I was trying to deceive you?

I assure you, there is no deception here, plus you are more than capable of making your own choices. :)
 
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EmSw

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I just don't believe the Bible supports faith + works. Over and over it says 'by faith', 'in faith', 'through faith'.

Here again, you are speaking of a dead faith without works. You may want to argue faith alone all you want, but arguing doesn't give life to faith.

The Bible even says that all our good works are like filthy rags, because none of us is good. We try to do better and be better, but when we do it it is a momentary decision we make to be good. If it does not reside deep, down in our hearts it is not lasting but only a fleeting thing when we make that decision.

I'm surprised you take a passage out of context to confirm your beliefs. Here is the context of which you speak -

Isaiah 64
5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness, who remembers You in Your ways. You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—in these ways we continue; and we need to be saved.
6 But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us, and have consumed us because of our iniquities.


Do you see why one's righteousness is as filthy rags? Because we sin (v. 5), iniquities takes us away (v. 6), and we have been consumed because of our iniquities (v. 7).

Do you not see it is our evil works which bring about these things? Do you not see God meets us who rejoice and do righteousness, that is, good works?

God changes the heart and God's Word says that He will give us the desires of our hearts. Now if those desires of our heart are not so good, then what we get will not be so good and that is our fault because if we desire bad things and sin our hearts lead us in that direction. So our desires have to change, in our hearts.

Ezekiel 18
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.


Do you not see that one who continue in sin shall die? However, if a man turns from all his sins, keeps His statutes, and DOES WHAT IS LAWFUL AND RIGHT, he shall surely live? None of his transgressions which he committed shall be remembered against him. DO YOU KNOW WHY? Listen carefully - BECAUSE OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD WORKS) WHICH HE HAS DONE, HE SHALL LIVE!!!

As far as changing our hearts, God will not change our hearts if we continue in iniquity.

Ezekiel 18
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.


God tell us to repent and turn from all our transgressions, so it will not be our ruin. He then tells us to cast away all our iniquities, AND GET OURSELVES A NEW HEART AND NEW SPIRIT.

God will not give anyone a new heart without repenting, turning from all transgressions, and casting away all transgressions. It's not that hard to understand. If one does not repent, does not turn from all his transgressions, and cast away all his iniquities, yes, his righteousness is as filthy rags.
 
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EmSw

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Ephesians 5:1-8
1
Be imitators of God, therefore, as beloved children, 2 and walk in love, just as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant sacrificial offering to God.

3 But among you, as is proper among the saints, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality or impurity or greed. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light,

Now read and understand the rest of the story; you are only giving the part you desire.

Did you read in verse 3, that there MUST NOT be even a hint of sexual immorality, impurity, or greed? Then Paul gives us a list of other things there MUST NOT be even a hint of in our lives. Why do people leave these out? Paul says no one who does these things has any inheritance in the kingdom of God. Why is this not given importance?

Now if you tell me those who commit and continue in such evil have an inheritance in the kingdom, you are certainly deceiving me with empty words. If one only has faith, yet continues in this evil, there is no inheritance of the kingdom, and certainly, no salvation.

Colossians 3:1-8
1
Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ, strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.b 7 When you lived among them, you also used to walk in these ways. 8 But now you must put aside all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your mouth.

In all these verses the sons of disobedience are people who are not saved. We have to look at the context of the verses.

Again, you only see what you desire, and do not heed the other things Paul says. You pull verse 7 out from verses 5 through 8. Why? Do the other verses have no meaning to you?

Paul says to put to death things of the earthly nature, then lists them. If one does not put these things to death, he is living in them. Therefore, he becomes a son of disobedient. And yes, those who continue in these things are not saved.

Paul was talking to those WHO USED TO WALK IN THESE WAYS. It is those who obeyed and put to death the earthly things. Those who haven't put to death the earthly things, are sons of disobedience.

All these things of which Paul speaks correlate perfectly with the verses of Ezekiel 18. Cast away, put to death all our iniquities, lest we die.

This, my friend, is the context.
 
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EmSw

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Do you really think I would be here quoting the Bible and putting it in context if I was trying to deceive you?

I assure you, there is no deception here, plus you are more than capable of making your own choices. :)

I don't think you are trying to deceive me. :) However, if you tell me anyone can be saved by faith alone, and not put to death the things of the earthly nature, I have to assume you are trying to deceive me if you keep bringing this up.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Now read and understand the rest of the story; you are only giving the part you desire.

Did you read in verse 3, that there MUST NOT be even a hint of sexual immorality, impurity, or greed? Then Paul gives us a list of other things there MUST NOT be even a hint of in our lives. Why do people leave these out? Paul says no one who does these things has any inheritance in the kingdom of God. Why is this not given importance?

Now if you tell me those who commit and continue in such evil have an inheritance in the kingdom, you are certainly deceiving me with empty words. If one only has faith, yet continues in this evil, there is no inheritance of the kingdom, and certainly, no salvation.
Please explain how many sins Christ died for?

Again, you only see what you desire, and do not heed the other things Paul says.
Why even mention Paul since you've made clear your attititude against him?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I don't think you are trying to deceive me. :) However, if you tell me anyone can be saved by faith alone, and not put to death the things of the earthly nature, I have to assume you are trying to deceive me if you keep bringing this up.
Why can't you see that your view is faith plus works, which is not taught anywhere in the Bible, including the OT.
 
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EmSw

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Please explain how many sins Christ died for?

Why even mention Paul since you've made clear your attititude against him?

How many sins did Jesus say to repent of, for the forgiveness of sins? If He died for sins, why did He tell His disciples to preach repentance for forgiveness of sins?

Luke 24
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Did forgiveness on the cross only last a few days?
 
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EmSw

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Why can't you see that your view is faith plus works, which is not taught anywhere in the Bible, including the OT.

Without doing good, no one will get to heaven. You seem to marvel at Jesus' words. Do you not believe Jesus' words?

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
 
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sdowney717

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Without doing good, no one will get to heaven. You seem to marvel at Jesus' words. Do you not believe Jesus' words?

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


John 10:32
Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?

Doesn't anyone understand that the good works we do, God has enabled and preordained of us to do them?
Seems they don't live in the power of God by faith, but by their own deeds they think they live.
I will continue to stick with what the scripture says and not make up believe stories.

Ephesians 2:10Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
10 For we are God’s [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].
 
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ToBeLoved

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Here again, you are speaking of a dead faith without works. You may want to argue faith alone all you want, but arguing doesn't give life to faith.



I'm surprised you take a passage out of context to confirm your beliefs. Here is the context of which you speak -

Isaiah 64
5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness, who remembers You in Your ways. You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—in these ways we continue; and we need to be saved.
6 But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us, and have consumed us because of our iniquities.


Do you see why one's righteousness is as filthy rags? Because we sin (v. 5), iniquities takes us away (v. 6), and we have been consumed because of our iniquities (v. 7).

Do you not see it is our evil works which bring about these things? Do you not see God meets us who rejoice and do righteousness, that is, good works?
However, you are quoting Isaiah which was spoken under the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant of grace through the blood of Christ.

Now if what you are saying is that our being justified (given Christ's righteousness, which is perfect) is not good enough to overcome any sin, then that is a very sad statement. God's Word says that the Father is only pleased with His Son. So Christ's righteousness stands in our place, it is not our sin looked upon when we are saved by Christ's blood.

Very important fact. It is Christ's righteousness we are given. Not ours. Ours would send us to hell, but not Christ's and we are justified by Christ. See Romans 5 and Romans 6
 
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ToBeLoved

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Here again, you are speaking of a dead faith without works. You may want to argue faith alone all you want, but arguing doesn't give life to faith.
I am not arguing anything to give life to faith. The only thing I can control is my own faith and that is what I do, however I am speaking what God's Word says, that is the conversation. My faith is fine, do not worry about me my friend. But I'm glad you love me and are worried for me. :oldthumbsup:
 
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ToBeLoved

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I don't think you are trying to deceive me. :) However, if you tell me anyone can be saved by faith alone, and not put to death the things of the earthly nature, I have to assume you are trying to deceive me if you keep bringing this up.
The way I look at these posts is a conversation. Talking about God's Word and truth rather than trying to change your mind and beliefs, although I do share the truth that the Holy Spirit has shared with me.

It is best to see this as a difference in opinion about a topic of Christian life and not take it personal. I do not accuse you of misleading me when you state your understanding, do I? No, so please do not accuse me, it is hurtful.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Without doing good, no one will get to heaven. You seem to marvel at Jesus' words. Do you not believe Jesus' words?

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
And what does God's Word say, we can do no good without Christ, so whose good works are they? Christ's or ours? If they are Christ's than how can we take credit for them?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I asked this:
"Please explain how many sins Christ died for?"
How many sins did Jesus say to repent of, for the forgiveness of sins?
This is not an answer. It's a dodge.

If He died for sins
What do you mean "if"? Of course He did. And all of them.

why did He tell His disciples to preach repentance for forgiveness of sins?
The Greek word is a combination of 2 words "change" and "mind". In order to be saved, one must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. And to do that, one must change their minds about a lot of things.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Without doing good, no one will get to heaven.
Bald faced works based salvation. That's what the Pharisees thought, too. And Jesus continually took them to task for their hypocrisy.

You seem to marvel at Jesus' words. Do you not believe Jesus' words?
I certainly believe all of Jesus' words. Which Paul also taught.

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
While this may sound like works salvation, in light of the immediate context, including v.24 and v.31-47, that is an impossible interpretation.

When compared to Rom 3:10-12, 20, we know that "no one does good".

So, please quit trying to pit Scripture against Scripture.

The most obvious understanding of v.28 and 29 is that "doing good" refers to believing in Jesus, as the whole rest of Scripture teaches, and that doing evil refers to rejecting Him.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Now read and understand the rest of the story; you are only giving the part you desire.

Did you read in verse 3, that there MUST NOT be even a hint of sexual immorality, impurity, or greed? Then Paul gives us a list of other things there MUST NOT be even a hint of in our lives. Why do people leave these out? Paul says no one who does these things has any inheritance in the kingdom of God. Why is this not given importance?

Now if you tell me those who commit and continue in such evil have an inheritance in the kingdom, you are certainly deceiving me with empty words. If one only has faith, yet continues in this evil, there is no inheritance of the kingdom, and certainly, no salvation.
You think because we say that ALL sin is forgiveable by God that we are straying from what God says is good. That is an incorrect assumption, what we are stating is what God's Word says and God's Word says that all repented for sin will be forgiven.

When sin has been forgiven by God, God casts that forgiven sin away never to be spoken of again. Hard for us to believe, but that's what God's Word says. So in that case, sexual immorality, once forgiven by God is according to His Word never to be spoken of again by God, which would mean it no longer exists against that person. So, if it is a forgiven sin, then it is like they have never done it.

The human part of us wants to hang on to everything everyone has ever done as a sin. Persecute the saints until there are no saints left, but we cannot persecute others for what Christ Himself has forgiven and thrown away.

You can choose to live that life, persecuting the saints but you have no idea who has repented of what, so your words if they are not 'repent', 'repent' are only words of persecution. Making others think that God cannot or will not forgive them and cast their sin away, which is a crime of those who preach this.
 
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EmSw

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You think because we say that ALL sin is forgiveable by God that we are straying from what God says is good. That is an incorrect assumption, what we are stating is what God's Word says and God's Word says that all repented for sin will be forgiven.

I don't think you are straying from what God says is good. Yes, repented sin will be forgiven.

When sin has been forgiven by God, God casts that forgiven sin away never to be spoken of again. Hard for us to believe, but that's what God's Word says. So in that case, sexual immorality, once forgiven by God is according to His Word never to be spoken of again by God, which would mean it no longer exists against that person. So, if it is a forgiven sin, then it is like they have never done it.

I'm not talking about forgiven sin; that will be remembered no more.

The human part of us wants to hang on to everything everyone has ever done as a sin. Persecute the saints until there are no saints left, but we cannot persecute others for what Christ Himself has forgiven and thrown away.

I agree.

You can choose to live that life, persecuting the saints but you have no idea who has repented of what, so your words if they are not 'repent', 'repent' are only words of persecution. Making others think that God cannot or will not forgive them and cast their sin away, which is a crime of those who preach this.

I don't think for a minute God cannot forgive and cast their sin away. I have no idea where you are going. I am speaking of a person who continually lives in sexual immorality. If a person repents of sexual immorality, and continues to do it, he hasn't truly repented.

Acts 26
and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

I know you don't like hearing this, but good works are connected to repentance. If one repents and continues in evil works, he hasn't repented. He must bring forth works befitting repentance.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I don't think you are straying from what God says is good. Yes, repented sin will be forgiven.

I'm not talking about forgiven sin; that will be remembered no more.

I agree.

I don't think for a minute God cannot forgive and cast their sin away. I have no idea where you are going. I am speaking of a person who continually lives in sexual immorality. If a person repents of sexual immorality, and continues to do it, he hasn't truly repented.

Acts 26
and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

I know you don't like hearing this, but good works are connected to repentance. If one repents and continues in evil works, he hasn't repented. He must bring forth works befitting repentance.
It just seems to me that people talk about sin and that no one will enter God's kingdom if they do xxx, xxx, xxx, xxx and xxx, yet never share that all sin should and can be repented of. Instead of saying that, by itself, I would like to see us call new or unrepentant sinners to repentence, that's all.

Let's give them the solution to the problelm, not just talk about the problem. I guess that is what I'm saying.

Does that make sense?
 
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