If I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose again am I permanently saved?

[St_Worm2]

Just wanted to point it out because I thought you were saying the opposite later.

As I said, I always appreciate a heartfelt admonishment from someone like you, and I hope you keep them coming I will try to be a little more careful and will probably (hopefully ) make better posts in the future as a result

God bless you! (Numbers 6:24-26)

--David

 

[EmSw]

We are saved through faith and only through faith. Faith is what was credited to Abraham as righteousness. In the same way it is only faith that reconciles mankind back to God.

Hebrews 11:8-9
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, without knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the promised land as a stranger in a foreign country. He lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

Romans 4:1-5
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Who are you going to believe?

 

[ToBeLoved]

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Who are you going to believe?

Abraham showed his faith by being willing to offer up Isaac, but Isaac was never sacrificed, so it wasn't the work of sacrificing Isaac.

Abraham was not under either covenant either, the Old Covenant or the New Covenant. So he was not under the New Covenant, but was because of his faith he was made promises outside of either covenant and it was allocated to him through faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry for creating a duplicated thread (I need a quick answer)

Why a "quick answer"? Contemplating something that makes you nervous?

And are we to trust Paul's gospel?

Of course we are. It's the biblical gospel.

Is salvation permanent?

Contrary to the various nay-saying responses, yes. For many reasons.

For me, the primary reason is that Rom 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift of God. And then Rom 11:29 teaches that the gifts and call of God are irrevocable.

Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

But there are many other reasons.

As a fact, there are zero verses that teach that salvation can be lost. To be sure, there are many verses used in defense of that claim, but none of them plainly say that either salvation or eternal life can be lost for any reason.

Also, those who espouse loss of salvation cannot show any evidence that any of the things that accompany salvation can be UN-done.

Such as:
justification. Rom 3-4
forgiveness of all sins. Acts 10:43
new birth (born again). John 1:12, 3:5
sealing with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14

If salvation can be lost, then there must be verses that address these issues and show that they ALL can be UN-done.

But, there aren't any.

But, going back to the "quick answer", having salvation permanently doesn't get anyone off the hook for rebellion against God's will. Heb 12 is quite clear about His discipline for wayward children. The KJV says "scourge", but the Greek word refers to being skinned alive with a whip, the common form of punishment in Jesus' day. Both the Jewish leadership as well as the Romans utilized whipping, which literally took the skin off one's back.

While the verse in Heb 12 is figurative, the point is clear; discipline from the hand of God isn't something to dismiss or take lightly.

Permanent salvation doesn't mean that God lets His children get away with whatever they want to do.

 

[EmSw]

Abraham showed his faith by being willing to offer up Isaac, but Isaac was never sacrificed, so it wasn't the work of sacrificing Isaac.

Abraham was not under either covenant either, the Old Covenant or the New Covenant. So he was not under the New Covenant, but was because of his faith he was made promises outside of either covenant and it was allocated to him through faith.

James didn't say Abraham sacrificed Isaac; he offered Isaac. Offering is a work. It's not just a mental assent. Read the story in Genesis. Abraham travelled, built the altar, tied Isaac, and drew his knife. It was by faith he did these works.

Faith without works is dead. So many people a dead faith can save and justify. Do you believe a dead faith can save and justify?

 

[ToBeLoved]

James didn't say Abraham sacrificed Isaac; he offered Isaac. Offering is a work. It's not just a mental assent. Read the story in Genesis. Abraham travelled, built the altar, tied Isaac, and drew his knife. It was by faith he did these works.

Faith without works is dead. So many people a dead faith can save and justify. Do you believe a dead faith can save and justify?

I don't want to argue about it, but we are under grace in the New Covenant by faith. Once we add works in there, things get really convuluted.

So is salvation USUALLY followed by works that Christ does in us? Yes. But many do not know it is Christ doing all the good stuff, not us, so I stay away from works based salvation because it is not the New Covenant. The New Covenant is all by faith. That's my point.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose again am I permanently saved?

If you follow through with all that "belief" includes, yes, if not, no.

 

[EmSw]

I don't want to argue about it, but we are under grace in the New Covenant by faith. Once we add works in there, things get really convuluted.

So is salvation USUALLY followed by works that Christ does in us? Yes. But many do not know it is Christ doing all the good stuff, not us, so I stay away from works based salvation because it is not the New Covenant. The New Covenant is all by faith. That's my point.

Let's not argue, but I would like to know just how Christ works in you without your participation. If you decide not to do the works, how does Christ do them?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Let's not argue, but I would like to know just how Christ works in you without your participation. If you decide not to do the works, how does Christ do them?

Christ changes the heart. So Jesus has changed my heart that I want to do things now knowing all He has done for me and that in His love is the best way to live.

So God has changed my heart and I am than following my own heart. So it is not that God says "Do this" and I say "No way". God helps me see the right things and desire the right thing, than I am doing my own desires, but that change in what I desire is God working on me over time. That is why God's Word says that when we were saved we became a new creation. So God can work with us, because when we became saved we changed masters and Christ paid an expensive price for us.

John 15:4-5
4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. 5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.

Romans 5:5
because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Romans 8:26-27
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 6:17
But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

John 16:8
8 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:


That's how it works with me and God and that is my experience.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you follow through with all that "belief" includes, yes, if not, no.

What does all that "belief" include?

Don't you either have faith/belief or do not have faith/belief in God?

 

[Kenny'sID]

What does all that "belief" include?

I think we've been over this and it didn't end well.

Don't you either have faith/belief or do not have faith/belief in God?

Of course.

For those that think belief/faith, means just saying it, this board is full of stern warnings for those who choose the easy way out, just do a search for OSAS.


If all we had to do was claim we had faith/believed, and not show it, this verse would be null, yet it is right there:
Matthew 7:13-14 - The Narrow and Wide Gates

James 2:14-26 NKJV - Faith Without Works Is Dead

If you love me, keep my commands John 14:15
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...7_nyiSPSTn9WoKyVA&sig2=_zMivfYSHC1IEgO2_eboVA
If we have faith and believe in Christ, we will have faith and believe he will do just what he says he will do here, and we will do what he requires of us:
Matthew 25:31-46 NIV;KJV - The Sheep and the Goats

If you want more, let me know.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...XpjzAUcIhxysw7JtQ&sig2=SNHYfvx9DwK0OMIgySyC4w

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think we've been over this and it didn't end well.



Of course.

For those that think belief/faith, means just saying it, this board is full of stern warnings for those who choose the easy way out, just do a search for OSAS.


If all we had to do was claim we had faith/believed, and not show it, this verse would be null, yet it is right there:
Matthew 7:13-14 - The Narrow and Wide Gates

James 2:14-26 NKJV - Faith Without Works Is Dead

If you love me, keep my commands John 14:15
If we have faith and believe in Christ, we will have faith and believe he will do just what he says he will do here, and we will do what he requires of us:
Matthew 25:31-46 NIV;KJV - The Sheep and the Goats

If you want more, let me know.

This is a lot of different verses and contexts thrown in one big basket.

The narrow and wide gates are not both talking about Christianity or belief in God. The wide gate is the gate that is not leading to God but to those who honor their flesh and serve another master, so I'm not sure how this proves your point.

The same idea with the sheep and the goats. One are God's Children, the sheep, the other is the world and those who are not of God, the goats.

So, I'm not even sure why you would use these as proof texts talking about works or needing something other than faith to please God. You are comparing apples to beef. There is no correlation.

Jesus telling us that if we love Him we will keep His commands is not about salvation but about obedience to Christ.

I also believe that the faith without works is dead is talking about dead faith verses faith that is alive. Faith that is lived out daily in our lives.

So I think you are pretty off with this entire post.

 

[EmSw]

The same idea with the sheep and the goats. One are God's Children, the sheep, the other is the world and those who are not of God, the goats.

Perhaps you need to read these verses and tell us why Jesus told the sheep to inherit the kingdom. I will include it here for you.

Matthew 25
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 FOR I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

Do you see the word 'FOR'? Jesus tells them the reason for inheriting the kingdom. He absolutely said nothing about faith, but rather, good works.

So, I'm not even sure why you would use these as proof texts talking about works or needing something other than faith to please God. You are comparing apples to beef. There is no correlation.

There is absolutely a correlation. Perhaps you don't want to believe it, because you have been taught otherwise.

Jesus telling us that if we love Him we will keep His commands is not about salvation but about obedience to Christ.

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

And why isn't obedience about eternal salvation?

 

[EmSw]

I also believe that the faith without works is dead is talking about dead faith verses faith that is alive. Faith that is lived out daily in our lives.

Why not say what James says? He says faith without works is dead. How is faith lived out daily in your life? Does it include works? Or perhaps, it's just a mental assent.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Perhaps you need to read these verses and tell us why Jesus told the sheep to inherit the kingdom. I will include it here for you.

Matthew 25
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 FOR I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

Do you see the word 'FOR'? Jesus tells them the reason for inheriting the kingdom. He absolutely said nothing about faith, but rather, good works.



There is absolutely a correlation. Perhaps you don't want to believe it, because you have been taught otherwise.



Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

And why isn't obedience about eternal salvation?

But we cannot even think about pleasing God without faith.

Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Besides that, the only people who will inherit the Kingdom are those who are saved, so obviously the verse is about those who are saved.

Romans 8:17
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ — if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

So it is after we have been saved that Christ tells His Children what we should do to become more like Him. It is all tied to our salvation, which is by faith and before we have done any good works. Plus Christ tells us that without Him (meaning we are saved and have the indwelling Holy Spirit) we can do nothing. So once we have been saved, it is Christ in us doing everything, not us.

John 15:4-6
4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. 5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why not say what James says? He says faith without works is dead. How is faith lived out daily in your life? Does it include works? Or perhaps, it's just a mental assent.

I already clarified. Faith that is alive is lived out daily in our hearts. The heart is what motivates us. Our heart acts and desires before it ever gets to our minds to think about an action or doing.

Faith that is dead is not lived out in our lives and hearts, but rather in our minds. This is the faith that we must think about, not the faith that is alive and in our hearts.

They are both kinds of faith, however.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

And why isn't obedience about eternal salvation?

It doesn't say that we are perfected, it says that Jesus had been perfected and He became the author of eternal salvation.

That doesn't say that obedience is what saves anyone.

 

[EmSw]

But we cannot even think about pleasing God without faith.

Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Besides that, the only people who will inherit the Kingdom are those who are saved, so obviously the verse is about those who are saved.

Romans 8:17
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ — if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

So it is after we have been saved that Christ tells His Children what we should do to become more like Him. It is all tied to our salvation, which is by faith and before we have done any good works. Plus Christ tells us that without Him (meaning we are saved and have the indwelling Holy Spirit) we can do nothing. So once we have been saved, it is Christ in us doing everything, not us.

John 15:4-6
4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. 5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

However, you are trying so desperately to make it faith alone.

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

He is the author of those who OBEY Him. Faith + Works!

 

[EmSw]

I already clarified. Faith that is alive is lived out daily in our hearts. The heart is what motivates us. Our heart acts and desires before it ever gets to our minds to think about an action or doing.

Again, what do you mean by 'lived out'? Doing good? Or just mentally assenting to doing good?

Faith that is dead is not lived out in our lives and hearts, but rather in our minds. This is the faith that we must think about, not the faith that is alive and in our hearts.

Where did you learn this? James gives an example of a living faith.

James 2
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Can a faith without works save? What would you tell James? Do you tell the poor to be filled, but do not give them what they need? A living faith 'DOES', not just mentally assent.

They are both kinds of faith, however.

Yes, living faith and dead faith.

 

[EmSw]

It doesn't say that we are perfected, it says that Jesus had been perfected and He became the author of eternal salvation.

Wow!!! Did you leave off 'to all who obey Him' intentionally? Who is teaching you these things?

That doesn't say that obedience is what saves anyone.

Why not just erase 'to all who obey Him'? That way, you dictate it is not obedience which saves.

Have you not read what happens to the sons of disobedience?

Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

I sure hope you aren't trying to deceive me. Paul says the wrath of God comes upon sons of disobedience. He also says if you are a son of disobedience, the prince of the power of the air (Satan) is working in you.