If I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose again am I permanently saved?

[EmSw]

Hi Em, I didn't think there was any guile in what you said, I actually thought you asked an excellent question because, if I wanted to answer it honestly, it didn't allow me to give you a "simple" answer

David, thank you for your honesty.

And you are correct, a Christian does "act/talk/think" radically differently that he/she did as a non-C (well, unless they came to Christ as a young child, of course). If those who claim to have become Christians do not, then it is highly doubtful that their claim is anything more than that

You are correct. If one says they have faith, says James, but without works, will that faith save him?

James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James says it is a dead faith; a dead faith cannot save, no matter how much one strives to believe it does. A dead faith includes not 'acting/talking/thinking' as a child of God should.

As for verses like John 5:28-29, I can see at least two exegetical problems arising if they are simply taken at face value/out of context. 1) V29 effectively puts EVERYONE into both Heaven and Hell, because who among us has not "done good", and who among us has not "done evil"?

Maybe a Greek scholar can help us out here. If I'm not mistaken, it means one who 'continually' does good or evil. Here again, we see it's not faith alone which saves, but one who has faith and continues in doing good.

Hitler and Stalin did MANY things that were good, but they also did great evil, of course. Or perhaps you believe that God has us on the 50/50 plan? If we are, this verse certainly doesn't teach that, so belief in the 50/50 becomes a matter of pure conjecture (as does trying to decide how much good it takes to be considered "good" and how much "evil" it takes to be considered "evil".

I believe this is why we are told repeatedly to rid ourselves of sin, that is, put off the old man, and put on the new man. We are told to cleanse ourselves. Many cleanse the outside, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence (Matthew 23:25). Jesus then goes on to say cleanse the inside that the outside may be clean also.

The inside, that is, the heart of man with its intentions and motives are what the Lord judges in man. Just believing will not cleanse the heart of man.

And 2) The clear, didactic teaching of the Lord (i.e. John 3:16, John 3:18; John 5:24-25, John 20:31, etc) that tells us that we are saved by faith, by believing. If we are saved by "grace" through faith, then we cannot also be saved by what we "do" .. or "grace is no longer grace" (Romans 11:6).

However, if one deems grace to be saving, then he must also obey what grace teaches. Do you agree?

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Grace does not allow one to continue in evil. If one believes grace saves, and yet continues in sin, he is making a mockery of grace. Grace also teaches we should do good, that is, live soberly, righteously, and godly.

Our first parents, who had no fallen nature besetting them, were unable to keep the "single" commandment that God gave them to obey. We have 613 commandments in the OT and 1,050 more in the NT that need to be obeyed (and that's just for starters, of course), and we have a fallen nature standing in our way to boot.

As you stated below, all these commandments hang on the two great commandments.

In fairness, we can reduce all of that down to two commandments: 1) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength, and 2) You shall love your neighbor as yourself. If you can just do those two things, you may well be part of the resurrection to life (as long as you have never failed to do both of them perfectly, that is .. even once .. James 2:10-11).

Many have stated this quite a bit. However, you will not find 'perfectly' in correlation to keeping His commandments. We all fail, and we all have the remedy for our failures in repentance.

Of course, considering what those verses actually say, the question you really need to ask yourself is, "have I EVER done those two things .. EVEN ONCE?" (that's a question that all the sons and daughters of Adam/Eve need to ask themselves, actually )

As I stated above, we have the very remedy for this...repentance.

So maybe St. Paul got it right after all, yes, IOW, that the the Laws that God told us we needed to follow were never given to us with the expectation that we might actually be able to keep them. Rather, they were given as a means of showing us that we can't obey them and, by doing so, help us see and acknowledge how sinful we really are.

Do you really believe the command not to lust shows you that you can't obey it? Even unbelievers can keep this commandment. If a man can't keep this commandment, it shows he hasn't removed this sin against God from his heart.

If our civic law says the speed limit is 55, does this really mean we can't obey this law? This logic makes no sense. If God's law says not to murder, and man can't keep it, we would have a very chaotic world. God's law is a guide for man, not a deceptive command.

The "Law", according to St. Paul (i.e. Galatians 3:24) was meant as a harsh "tutor", to teach us who we really are (that we are men and women WITHOUT hope apart from Christ), and then to drive us to the His feet in the hope of receiving mercy (instead of the judgment and condemnation that we rightly deserve).

If you really want to know what His law is for, I suggest you read Psalm 119.

A man cleanses his way by obeying His word (v. 9).

We hide His word in our hearts that we may not sin against Him (v. 11).

The proud, the cursed stray from His commandments (v. 21).

His word revives us (v. 25).

We are to keep His law continually, forever and ever (v. 44).

The wicked forsake His law (v. 53).

We are made wise through His law (v. 98).

Those who stray from His statutes are rejected by God; their deceit is falsehood (v. 118).

Those who follow wickedness are far from His law (v. 150).

No where will you find we are without hope through His laws...NO WHERE! In fact, salvation is associated with His law. I adjure you to read all of chapter 119 and see what His law really is.

 

[St_Worm2]

You are correct. If one says they have faith, says James, but without works, will that faith save him?

James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James says it is a dead faith; a dead faith cannot save, no matter how much one strives to believe it does. A dead faith includes not 'acting/talking/thinking' as a child of God should.

Hi Em, that's all correct, IMHO anyway. The thing is, while we know that a "dead" faith cannot save us, justification by a "saving" faith is still "justification by faith alone"! Our good works do not contribute to our salvation in any way because they are the result of our being saved, the "fruit" of our salvation, not the cause of it

You continue:

Maybe a Greek scholar can help us out here. If I'm not mistaken, it means one who 'continually' does good or evil. Here again, we see it's not faith alone which saves, but one who has faith and continues in doing good.

I'm not a Greek "scholar", but I know enough to help us out if that becomes necessary. All of us, throughout our lives, continue to do both "good" things AND "bad" things. That's why I brought up the 50/50 principle (that so many seem to want to "hang their hats on" .. even though that principle is not even implied in the Scriptures). Even Hitler did many things that were "good" throughout his entire life. So if salvation is for those who do "good", and reprobation is for those who do "bad", how is that supposed to work, since all of us have done plenty of both

I believe this is why we are told repeatedly to rid ourselves of sin, that is, put off the old man, and put on the new man. We are told to cleanse ourselves. Many cleanse the outside, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence (Matthew 23:25). Jesus then goes on to say cleanse the inside that the outside may be clean also.

What you seem to be doing here is blending St. Paul's words/teaching about those who are already saved by grace with the Lord's words/teaching to those who were still under the law ("grace" could not become a reality in anyone's life until there was a basis for it, until the Lord died and rose from the grave). The Lord prepared the way for it by His teachings, but He could not teach it in quite that same manner that St. Paul was able to because it didn't exist while the Lord still walked among us.

Those who are saved by grace ARE washed clean on the inside

*(This can only be true under "grace", that's how we are "washed clean", because God credits our sins to His Son's account, and His Son's righteousness to ours That's a big part of what it means to be "saved by grace" .. 2 Corinthians 5:21.) You continue:

The inside, that is, the heart of man with its intentions and motives are what the Lord judges in man. Just believing will not cleanse the heart of man.

That's true for everyone who remains "in Adam", but that cannot be true for the the saints, those who are "in Christ". If it was, NO ONE would be saved.

Saints will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ, of course, but that's a judgment that involves the acquisition of rewards for the works of righteousness done in the body, but it will not determine the final destination of any of those who are judged there (as that determination was made before they died).

However, if one deems grace to be saving, then he must also obey what grace teaches. Do you agree?

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Grace does not allow one to continue in evil. If one believes grace saves, and yet continues in sin, he is making a mockery of grace. Grace also teaches we should do good, that is, live soberly, righteously, and godly.

First and foremost, the principle thing that our dependence on His grace teaches us is that apart from it, we have no hope of obeying God If we did, then salvation would be based on our works and Jesus would have never needed to come here.

We are saved by grace, and our salvation (and resulting new nature) is what finally begins to make possible the living of holy/righteous/godly lives in Christ!

Those who are saved by grace live differently because we 'are' different, because God changed us into completely "new creatures" (2 Corinthians 5:17) in Christ when He caused us to be "born again". But ALL of this is based upon the works that Christ did for us, not on anything we've done (or even failed to do).

Just like Titus also teaches us:

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy..."

...you will not find 'perfectly' in correlation to keeping His commandments. We all fail, and we all have the remedy for our failures in repentance.

Matthew 5
48 Be ye perfect, even as my Father in Heaven is perfect.

Repentance is a remedy for us but, "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" ~Heb 9:22 God doesn't forgive us simply because of what we do (because we feel remorseful and say "we're sorry"), there is FAR more to it than that. Rather, what we 'do' resulted in the need for a Savior, for the Son of God to leave Heaven and to come down here to die. We are commanded to confess our sins and repent, but the basis for our forgiveness is found in the work of Christ alone.

There's some important stuff that I haven't replied to yet below (and I will) but this has gone on so long already that I think I'd better stop and finish up in another post.

Yours in Christ,
David

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on
our behalf, that we might become the
righteousness of God in Him"
2 Corinthians 5:21​

 

[St_Worm2]

Our first parents, who had no fallen nature besetting them, were unable to keep the "single" commandment that God gave them to obey. We have 613 commandments in the OT and 1,050 more in the NT that need to be obeyed (and that's just for starters, of course), and we have a fallen nature standing in our way to boot.

Hi Em, before we move on, I'd like to revisit something that I posted earlier (post #60) as it certainly seems germane to our discussion.

We're begotten in the fallen/tarnished image of our progenitors, yet we are still expected to perfectly obey 1,663 commandments (both the letter & the spirit of those commandments, BTW), if we are to have any hope of seeing Heaven. The problem is, nobody's perfect

Our first parents, on the other hand, were created "upright" by God (Ecclesiastes 7:29) and in His perfect "image" (Genesis 1:26-27). So they had no fallen nature and no inclination to sin to deal with (like we do), and they were given a SINGLE commandment to keep in the Garden. Had they kept it, sin and death (spiritual/physical) would have never entered our realm. But they didn't, and the rest, as they say, is history.

That said, please take a moment to consider what this passage tells us about sin (taking special note of how SERIOUSLY God takes it). Even though our first parents' sin was one of the most benign/innocuous peccadilloes that's ever been perpetrated in the history of our race (they just took a bite out of an apple), it still caused the death, both spiritual and physical, of the entire human race. In fact, those two little apple bites set in motion the decay and eventual demise of the Universe itself.

The scarlet thread of redemption, which saw it's fulfillment in the death of God's Son on the Cross, began that day with the sacrificial deaths of the animals whose skins God used to clothe Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21). So to put it as mildly as I know how, "sin" is a HUGE deal to God, and its forgiveness is clearly, no small matter

--David

"Through one man sin entered into the
world, and death through sin"
Romans 5:12​

​

 

[EmSw]

Hi Em, that's all correct, IMHO anyway. The thing is, while we know that a "dead" faith cannot save us, justification by a "saving" faith is still "justification by faith alone"! Our good works do not contribute to our salvation in any way because they are the result of our being saved, the "fruit" of our salvation, not the cause of it

Hello David. First, I would like to say salvation is not a one-time transaction. Salvation is being saved from our sins (Matthew 1:21). As long as we sin, we have a need to be saved from them.

The Bible is filled with admonitions to flee sin, cleanse ourselves, put on the new man (which is created in righteousness and holiness), cast away all our transgressions...and so on.

As long as we continue in evil works, we are not saved from our sins. To be saved from our sins is to remove them. We cleanse our hearts from evil works and then we can replace them with good works. We do not put new wine in old bottles; we do not put a new cloth onto a old garment.

I'm not a Greek "scholar", but I know enough to help us out if that becomes necessary. All of us, throughout our lives, continue to do both "good" things AND "bad" things. That's why I brought up the 50/50 principle (that so many seem to want to "hang their hats on" .. even though that principle is not even implied in the Scriptures). Even Hitler did many things that were "good" throughout his entire life. So if salvation is for those who do "good", and reprobation is for those who do "bad", how is that supposed to work, since all of us have done plenty of both

We are to make ourselves a new heart and new spirit.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit:

Ephesian 4
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Notice how Gentiles (the unsaved) live; they work all uncleanness and greediness. How many Christians work uncleanness and greediness?

If we have heard Jesus and been taught by Him, we are to put off the old man (like the unsaved Gentiles), which is corrupt. Then we are to renew our minds and put on the new man, which is created (born anew) in righteousness and holiness.

Yes, there may be a 50/50 principle, but it should continually move towards a 100% new man, that is, created in righteousness and holiness. Once we learn this truth (v. 21), that is, heard, been taught, and actually believe Jesus' words, then we replace our evil works with good works. When we believe, follow, and obey the truth of Jesus, there is no condemnation of our sins, for we continually replace them with good (righteous) works.

As Paul stated, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

What you seem to be doing here is blending St. Paul's words/teaching about those who are already saved by grace with the Lord's words/teaching to those who were still under the law ("grace" could not become a reality in anyone's life until there was a basis for it, until the Lord died and rose from the grave). The Lord prepared the way for it by His teachings, but He could not teach it in quite that same manner that St. Paul was able to because it didn't exist while the Lord still walked among us.

Our conversation is getting too long, so I will respond to above statement and leave it there.

The OT had grace before His death and resurrection, and I personally do not think God changed it in any way.

There are two roads each man must choose; the wide road or the narrow road. One leads to damnation while the other leads to life. Jesus said few will find the narrow road. How does a man find anything? If you can't find your car keys, how do you find them?

Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Proverbs 8:17
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Grace and mercy have been around from the beginning. Many found grace in the sight of God in the OT. How do you suppose they found His grace?

 

[EmSw]

Those who are saved by grace ARE washed clean on the inside

*(This can only be true under "grace", that's how we are "washed clean", because God credits our sins to His Son's account, and His Son's righteousness to ours That's a big part of what it means to be "saved by grace" .. 2 Corinthians 5:21.)

Grace does not remove the filthiness of the spirit. We are told to remove it from ourselves. We are not cleansed by grace. Here are three verses which state how we are cleansed -

Psalm 119:9
Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

It's not the 'unmerited favor' of God which cleanses a man, but rather, the truth of His word. The truth contained within plainly tells us how a man is cleasned - fleeing sin, casting away all our iniquities, putting off the old man...etc.

That's true for everyone who remains "in Adam", but that cannot be true for the the saints, those who are "in Christ". If it was, NO ONE would be saved.

I know it's popular to blame our sin on 'Adam'. Hardly anyone wants to face the truth and take responsibility for themselves. Ezekiel plainly tells us we ourselves are to blame for our sins and will face the consequences based upon our actions. No one will stand before God and be condemned for 'Adam's sin'.

Every man, woman, and child has their own 'original' sin.

Saints will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ, of course, but that's a judgment that involves the acquisition of rewards for the works of righteousness done in the body, but it will not determine the final destination of any of those who are judged there (as that determination was made before they died).

This is for another thread, but we have to seek the truth of 'each man's work'.

First and foremost, the principle thing that our dependence on His grace teaches us is that apart from it, we have no hope of obeying God If we did, then salvation would be based on our works and Jesus would have never needed to come here.

Did you have the grace of God while an unsaved sinner? If not, how did you have any hope of obeying God, that is, refraining from murder, refraining from lying, refraining from committing adultery, obeying your parents...etc.?

I think your 'principle' has no foundation on which to stand.

We are saved by grace, and our salvation (and resulting new nature) is what finally begins to make possible the living of holy/righteous/godly lives in Christ!

Those who are saved by grace live differently because we 'are' different, because God changed us into completely "new creatures" (2 Corinthians 5:17) in Christ when He caused us to be "born again". But ALL of this is based upon the works that Christ did for us, not on anything we've done (or even failed to do).

Being born again, much like being cleansed, is based upon His word. It does not happen 'magically' from God.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are born again of a seed. The seed must be planted in our hearts. That seed is the incorruptible word of God. One cannot be born again until the word is planted in the heart. Matthew 13 gives us the process by which the word is sown in the heart.

Being born again by grace is not an automatic process; it involves action on our part.

Just like Titus also teaches us:

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy..."

As Jesus said, He saves us from our sins. If we remain in our sins, or evil works, grace and mercy will save no one.

Matthew 5

48 Be ye perfect, even as my Father in Heaven is perfect.

Repentance is a remedy for us but, "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" ~Heb 9:22 God doesn't forgive us simply because of what we do (because we feel remorseful and say "we're sorry"), there is FAR more to it than that. Rather, what we 'do' resulted in the need for a Savior, for the Son of God to leave Heaven and to come down here to die. We are commanded to confess our sins and repent, but the basis for our forgiveness is found in the work of Christ alone.

There's some important stuff that I haven't replied to yet below (and I will) but this has gone on so long already that I think I'd better stop and finish up in another post.

If you read the context of being perfect in Matthew 5, you will see what Jesus is saying.

44 But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Being perfect is loving your enemies, blessing them who persecute you, doing good to them who hate you, and praying for them who despitefully use you. This is how God deals with everyone.

 

[BukiRob]

and yet we are also told to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling"

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

And just as Jesus said that it's by faith and Paul that it's a free gift, the essential qualification on our part is trusting Jesus to take of the salvation problem, and not trusting in our own works to qualify us.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5

Typically many, if not the vast majority, of "Christians" demonstrate that they don't really trust in Christ to save them by opting for a salvation by works idea.

If really you trust in Christ, and not in your own performance, to save you, you won't abandon that faith. But as you may have observed on this forum many have already abandoned that faith and attempt to get others to abandon such faith.

Secondly if you're trusting in Jesus, then why are you worrying about salvation? Don't you trust in Jesus to save you? The very fact that people worry about whether they are saved calls into question whether they are, seeing as it calls into question whether they confidently, with conviction, trust in Jesus to save them.

You all ( not just you singularly so I dont want you think I am just picking on you) are not being fair in your accounting of what Messiah says about salvation.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

The first thing one must do is come to full terms of exactly WHO Yeshua Ha Mashiack really is. I was raised as an evangelical christian from boyhood and accepted Messiah as my savior when I was 10... that was some 48 years ago and it has only been with in about the last 3-4 years that I have seen a fuller revelation of just who (Jesus) really is.....

He tells us in John In the beginning was the WORD (TORAH) You see when John wrote that under the power of the Holy Spirit there was only one thing that existed that was the word to his contemporary audience.... THE TORAH. John is plainly, openly declaring that Messiah was the TORAH become FLESH.

That brings on a POWERFUL signicicance when we see him say later in John I am the WAY (OT in several places tells us that the TORAH leads a man in the WAY he should go) the TRUTH ( in MULTIPLE places were told that the Torah is truth) and the LIFE (again, in several OT passage the Torah is called LIFE) NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.

A transliteration of that passage could be read.... I am the Torah,the Torah, the Torah, no one comes to the father but by me.

There is a horrific error teaching that tries to link "keeping the law" as a means of salvation.... it was not true when David or Moses was alive and its not true today. Abraham was saved the same way you and I are... THROUGH FAITH BY GRACE. Indeed we are TOLD this in Gen when G-d is speaking to Issac about Abraham that his FAITH was reckoned to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The purpose of the Torah (poorly translated as law. A better, more accurate translation is INSTRUCTION) is to teach us HOW to love the Father and HOW to love one another.

 

[bcbsr]

and yet we are also told to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling"



You all ( not just you singularly so I dont want you think I am just picking on you) are not being fair in your accounting of what Messiah says about salvation.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

The first thing one must do is come to full terms of exactly WHO Yeshua Ha Mashiack really is. I was raised as an evangelical christian from boyhood and accepted Messiah as my savior when I was 10... that was some 48 years ago and it has only been with in about the last 3-4 years that I have seen a fuller revelation of just who (Jesus) really is.....

He tells us in John In the beginning was the WORD (TORAH) You see when John wrote that under the power of the Holy Spirit there was only one thing that existed that was the word to his contemporary audience.... THE TORAH. John is plainly, openly declaring that Messiah was the TORAH become FLESH.

That brings on a POWERFUL signicicance when we see him say later in John I am the WAY (OT in several places tells us that the TORAH leads a man in the WAY he should go) the TRUTH ( in MULTIPLE places were told that the Torah is truth) and the LIFE (again, in several OT passage the Torah is called LIFE) NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.

A transliteration of that passage could be read.... I am the Torah,the Torah, the Torah, no one comes to the father but by me.

There is a horrific error teaching that tries to link "keeping the law" as a means of salvation.... it was not true when David or Moses was alive and its not true today. Abraham was saved the same way you and I are... THROUGH FAITH BY GRACE. Indeed we are TOLD this in Gen when G-d is speaking to Issac about Abraham that his FAITH was reckoned to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The purpose of the Torah (poorly translated as law. A better, more accurate translation is INSTRUCTION) is to teach us HOW to love the Father and HOW to love one another.

So do you view salvation as contingent upon one's works or not? In what way is my quoting of what Jesus said misrepresenting what Jesus said?

Paul said to work out your salvation, not to work for your salvation. Those who are saved exercise their faith, this as opposed to the idea that that one works to be saved, which is salvation by works. Do you work in order to be saved, or do you work as a saved person? Are works an indicator or a cause of one's justification?

 

[EmSw]

So do you view salvation as contingent upon one's works or not? In what way is my quoting of what Jesus said misrepresenting what Jesus said?

Paul said to work out your salvation, not to work for your salvation. Those who are saved exercise their faith, this as opposed to the idea that that one works to be saved, which is salvation by works. Do you work in order to be saved, or do you work as a saved person? Are works an indicator or a cause of one's justification?

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Doing good (good works) = resurrection of life. How can you say anyone is saved without good works. Without good works, a man has only the resurrection of condemnation awaiting him.

However, many do not believe Jesus and His words of truth. They will either explain it away, or ignore what He taught.

 

[bcbsr]

How can you say anyone is saved without good works..

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4-6

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" Titus 3:5

That's how I can say it.

 

[EmSw]

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4-6

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" Titus 3:5

That's how I can say it.

Did you not read Jesus' words?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Sorry for creating a duplicated thread (I need a quick answer)
And are we to trust Paul's gospel?
Is salvation permanent?

Definitely trust Paul's gospel message. If you have had a true born again experience you are safe with Jesus

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi Em, before we move on, I'd like to revisit something that I posted earlier (post #60) as it certainly seems germane to our discussion.

We're begotten in the fallen/tarnished image of our progenitors, yet we are still expected to perfectly obey 1,663 commandments (both the letter & the spirit of those commandments, BTW), if we are to have any hope of seeing Heaven. The problem is, nobody's perfect

Our first parents, on the other hand, were created "upright" by God (Ecclesiastes 7:29) and in His perfect "image" (Genesis 1:26-27). So they had no fallen nature and no inclination to sin to deal with (like we do), and they were given a SINGLE commandment to keep in the Garden. Had they kept it, sin and death (spiritual/physical) would have never entered our realm. But they didn't, and the rest, as they say, is history.

That said, please take a moment to consider what this passage tells us about sin (taking special note of how SERIOUSLY God takes it). Even though our first parents' sin was one of the most benign/innocuous peccadilloes that's ever been perpetrated in the history of our race (they just took a bite out of an apple), it still caused the death, both spiritual and physical, of the entire human race. In fact, those two little apple bites set in motion the decay and eventual demise of the Universe itself.

The scarlet thread of redemption, which saw it's fulfillment in the death of God's Son on the Cross, began that day with the sacrificial deaths of the animals whose skins God used to clothe Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21). So to put it as mildly as I know how, "sin" is a HUGE deal to God, and its forgiveness is clearly, no small matter

--David

"Through one man sin entered into the
world, and death through sin"
Romans 5:12​

​

It doesn't seem to me by what you wrote above that you see any difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in Jesus blood.

In the Old Covenant, the person had to be righteous and obey the law perfectly.

In the New Covenant, we are given CHRIST'S righteousness because no one can obey the law perfectly.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Did you not read Jesus' words?

We are saved through faith and only through faith. Faith is what was credited to Abraham as righteousness. In the same way it is only faith that reconciles mankind back to God.

Hebrews 11:8-9
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, without knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the promised land as a stranger in a foreign country. He lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

Romans 4:1-5
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sorry for creating a duplicated thread (I need a quick answer)
And are we to trust Paul's gospel?
Is salvation permanent?

I'd like to ask you a very serious question. Do you have the Holy Spirit indwelling your heart? That's how we know we are saved, the Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant God makes with each of us.

 

[St_Worm2]

It doesn't seem to me by what you wrote above that you see any difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in Jesus blood.

In the Old Covenant, the person had to be righteous and obey the law perfectly.

In the New Covenant, we are given CHRIST'S righteousness because no one can obey the law perfectly.

Do you see what I mean?

Hi Sister, who in the history of our race has ever been able to perfectly obey the Law (save Christ, of course)? All are saved by a faith that either looks ahead to Christ (OT) or back to Him (NT), yes?

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

--David

 

[ToBeLoved]

and yet we are also told to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling"

If you look at that verse,

12Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Looking at the Interlinear Greek (see Philippians 2:12 Interlinear: So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out,). The word for "fear" in the Greek is "phobou"


3326 [e]
meta
μετὰ
with
Prep

5401 [e]
phobou
φόβου
fear
N-GMS

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
5156 [e]
tromou
τρόμου
trembling
N-GMS
Then, if you look at Strong's Concordance for that word, "phobou" (see Strong's Greek: 5401. φόβος (phobos) -- panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror) you see there is three different contexts where that word has been used.


phobos: panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror
Original Word: φόβος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: phobos
Phonetic Spelling: (fob'-os)
Short Definition: fear, terror, reverence
Definition: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect.

I believe that the verse is talking about reverence and respect for God and who He is because He controls our destiny's after death. A man should fear a God who can send them to hell for all eternity.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi Sister, who in the history of our race has ever been able to perfectly obey the Law (save Christ, of course)? All are saved by a faith that either looks ahead to Christ (OT) or back to Him (NT), yes?

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

--David

I'm confused because you wrote this above a few posts:

We're begotten in the fallen/tarnished image of our progenitors, yet we are still expected to perfectly obey 1,663 commandments (both the letter & the spirit of those commandments, BTW), if we are to have any hope of seeing Heaven.

This is the part that I found confusing. That sounds very much like works based salvation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Someone who is saved by grace in faith in Jesus Christ knows Jesus Christ.

This says I NEVER KNEW YOU. Semi-colon then talking further about this group (non believers). Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness

 

[St_Worm2]

I'm confused because you wrote this above a few posts:

We're begotten in the fallen/tarnished image of our progenitors, yet we are still expected to perfectly obey 1,663 commandments (both the letter & the spirit of those commandments, BTW), if we are to have any hope of seeing Heaven.

This is the part that I found confusing. That sounds very much like works based salvation.

Right, but I said it to make a point to the person I was talking to, specifically, that the NONE have any hope outside of Christ because NO ONE can keep the commandments (James 2:10-11) perfectly. I was also making the point that our progenitors, who did not have a fallen nature like we do, were unable to keep only one commandment, much less 1,663 (again, making the point that we truly have no hope outside of Christ).

Sorry if that was confusing. I do my best to make each post stand on it's own, but sometimes it's almost impossible to do so (and sometimes I definitely could have done better job ).

I do appreciate you pointing it out to me

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[ToBeLoved]

Right, but I said it to make a point to the person I was talking to, specifically, that the NONE have any hope outside of Christ because NO ONE can keep the commandments (James 2:10-11) perfectly. I was also making the point that our progenitors, who did not have a fallen nature like we do, were unable to keep only one commandment, much less 1,663 (again, making the point that we truly have no hope outside of Christ).

Sorry if that was confusing. I do my best to make each post stand on it's own, but sometimes it's almost impossible to do so (and sometimes I definitely could have done better job ).

I do appreciate you pointing it out to me

Yours in Christ,
David

We all just try our best. Just wanted to point it out because I thought you were saying the opposite later.