If I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose again am I permanently saved?

[TheSeabass]

I think most people disagree with you.

Does not matter, all that matters is what the bible says.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Just curious where it says one is saved by "faith alone" (with the emphasis on the word "alone) in the Bible? It appears you are adding the word "alone" as I can't find that anywhere in Scripture.

I won't get into the origins of "faith alone" as one of the five solas of the Reformation (look it up), but here is one believer's answer to your excellent question:

You are right. The actual phrase “faith alone” does not occur in the scriptures … but it is easily interpreted from what it does say. Faith alone means we are not saved by works or by obedience to the Law (because both of these are patently impossible for humans born with a sin nature—meaning all of us) and Paul is quite clear over and over about works and obedience being insufficient. So what else is there that could save us but faith in Jesus Christ and His paying the justice price for us on the Cross? Nothing else but faith alone.

As the late great John R.W. Stott taught: The first and fundamental ground of our assurance, because it is the sole ground of our salvation, is 'the finished work of Christ'. Whenever the devil or even our conscience accuses us, and we feel burdened with guilt, we need to look away from ourselves to Christ crucified. Then again we will have peace. For our acceptance with God depends not on ourselves and what we could ever do (which could never be enough for any of us) but instead depends entirely on Christ and what he has done for all on the Cross. We simply must believe.

 

[EmSw]

You are right. The actual phrase “faith alone” does not occur in the scriptures … but it is easily interpreted from what it does say. Faith alone means we are not saved by works or by obedience to the Law (because both of these are patently impossible for humans born with a sin nature—meaning all of us) and Paul is quite clear over and over about works and obedience being insufficient. So what else is there that could save us but faith in Jesus Christ and His paying the justice price for us on the Cross? Nothing else but faith alone.

Did you know this passage existed?

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Those who do not listen and obey are rebels against God's truth.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

For one who is already a Christian:

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (2 Tim 3:17; Titus 3:8,14 cf Matt 25:32-46)

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my (Christ's) works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"

Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

It is impossible for one to become a Christian and never do any good works, no evangelistic work and yet still be saved.

Yes, the right way to say this is not that good works will save us (they would always be insufficient) but that those who truly believe and are saved will be empowered and motivated by God Himself to do good works. It is ultimately about the grace of God and He will get all the credit. Grace yields faith yields works. If there are no works, then we must assume that there is no faith (as James taught). Without grace, there is no faith, and without faith there are no truly good works.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Did you know this passage existed?

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Those who do not listen and obey are rebels against God's truth.

Absolute truth. But it must be understood correctly. All who have "faith alone" have been graced by God to be able to obey and so they are motivated to do so, and will do so. It is still not the obedience that saves--- but obedience is evidence of the faith that does save.

We have no power within ourselves to obey sufficiently. No one us can love God will all heart, soul, mind, and strength ... and our neighbors as ourselves. We can only make progress in this love and obedience through "Christ in us, the hope of glory." Obedience only comes through God's grace and our faith.

 

[EmSw]

Yes, the right way to say this is not that good works will save us (they would always be insufficient) but that those who truly believe and are saved will be empowered and motivated by God Himself to do good works. It is ultimately about the grace of God and He will get all the credit. Grace yields faith yields works. If there are no works, then we must assume that there is no faith (as James taught). Without grace, there is no faith, and without faith there are no truly good works.

Whether you admit it or not, even you believe it's grace, faith, and works which save. Omit one and there is no salvation. As you say, no works, no faith. No faith, no salvation.

 

[EmSw]

Absolute truth. But it must be understood correctly. All who have "faith alone" have been graced by God to be able to obey and they are so motivated. So they will do so. It is still not the obedience that saves--- but obedience is evidence of the faith that does save.

It does not say He is the author of eternal salvation to all who have faith and then obey Him. But you are free to add what you desire to the word.

Read it carefully Dr., He is the author of eternal salvation to ALL WHO OBEY HIM!

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Whether you admit it or not, even you believe it's grace, faith, and works which save. Omit one and there is no salvation. As you say, no works, no faith. No faith, no salvation.

Agree. As long as you agree with Paul that faith (acquired by the grace of God) is required to do good works. We will never get credit for our good works because we can only do them by the grace of God. He sets us up for success. He gets all the glory.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Em/Bruce, good works, a holy lifestyle, loving obedience, and the desire to please God, are all things that the accompany salvation, because they are, in fact, the natural RESULT of being justified/saved by grace. Calvin agrees, who wrote:

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

But the "fruit" of our justification cannot be its cause (nor is it the cause of our perseverance in the faith). Again, our desire to please God in all that we do, say and think, to be obedient, to live a holy (rather than worldly) lifestyle, etc., all flows from our regeneration and justification, from our being "born again" and then made into completely "new creatures" in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Therefore, the only ones capable of doing the works that accompany salvation are those who are already Believers. The lost/"natural" men and women of this world (those not born again, who have neither the indwelling of the HS nor the "mind of Christ", IOW, those who do not "know" God .. Matthew 7:22-23), cannot obey God, obviously ... since you cannot obey someone you do not know/whose words you cannot understand (and are, therefore, nothing but foolishness to you .. see below).

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. ~1 Cor 2
​

Yours in Christ,
David

"The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are
perishing, but to us who are being saved
it is the power of God"
1 Cor 1:18​

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Hi Em/Bruce, good works, a holy lifestyle, loving obedience, and the desire to please God, are all things that the accompany salvation, because they are, in fact, the natural RESULT of being justified/saved by grace. Calvin agrees, who wrote:

​

But the "fruit" of our justification cannot be its cause (nor is it the cause of our perseverance in the faith). Again, our desire to please God in all that we do, say and think, to be obedient, to live a holy (rather than worldly) lifestyle, etc., all flows from our regeneration and justification, from our being "born again" and then made into completely "new creatures" in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Therefore, the only ones capable of doing the works that accompany salvation are those who are already Believers. The lost/"natural" men and women of this world (those not born again, who have neither the indwelling of the HS nor the "mind of Christ", IOW, those who do not "know" God .. Matthew 7:22-23), cannot obey God, obviously ... since you cannot obey someone you do not know/whose words you cannot understand (and are, therefore, nothing but foolishness to you .. see below).

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. ~1 Cor 2
​

Yours in Christ,
David

"The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are
perishing, but to us who are being saved
it is the power of God"
1 Cor 1:18​

Thanks for that. Although I am not a Calvinist, I agree that he got some things exactly right.

 

[EmSw]

Agree. As long as you agree with Paul that faith (acquired by the grace of God) is required to do good works. We will never get credit for our good works because we can only do them by the grace of God. He sets us up for success. He gets all the glory.

I agree; however, you can't separate them. Separating them is like separating the spirit from the body, as James says.

 

[EmSw]

So I ask you, is a man saved without works?

 

[Vicomte13]

Sorry for creating a duplicated thread (I need a quick answer)
And are we to trust Paul's gospel?
Is salvation permanent?

No. Do not trust that interpretation of Paul's Gospel. Trust what Jesus says in his letters to the Seven Churches in the Revelation. You'll be judged by your deeds and forgiven by your forgiveness. Trust Jesus when he asks "What good does it do you to say you follow me if you don't keep my commandments?" And trust Jesus when he says that those who cry "Lord, Lord!" and do things in his name, but are not caring for the destitute, will be rejected by him.

Your state of mind at one point in time isn't going to cause you to pass final judgment. Keeping Jesus' commandments, and forgiving others when they sin against you so that God forgives your sins against him - this is the only way to pass final judgment.

Paul can be confusing. Jesus is not. When Paul is read in such a way that a man doesn't think he has to be good and be forgiving of other men, then men are misinterpreting him to their own destruction. Since Paul is confusing, if he confuses you and causes you to believe in something like "permanent salvation" even if you don't follow Jesus and are not forgiving, stop focusing on Paul and keep your eyes on Jesus, for it is Jesus who is the "bronze serpent" for us.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

I agree; however, you can't separate them. Separating them is like separating the spirit from the body, as James says.

Yes, good deeds cannot be separated from true faith, nor from the spiritual power to do the deeds which comes from God. However, in our thinking,
the grace of God must ALWAYS come first, then faith, then works. This is how it actually happens. Any theology which deviates from this order is heretical and allows for humans to take credit for their own salvation.

 

[GodB4S]

I believe in once saved always saved...but I am not saved until I get there! Revelations says in 12:10-"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Everything before points to salvation..."of Salvation"..."shall be saved...ect.

Jesus died for our sins...the gift of God. That is not taken away. But if you sin, you need to do your first works over, repent and overcome. To be a christian you need to be Christ like...Jesus did not sin...If you sin you are a child of your father the devil for if the Spirit of God is in you and God is your Father then you can not sin...if the flesh gets in the way and you walk on the blood of Jesus and count it a unworthy thing by sinning wilfully there is no more sacrifice...you have to do your first works over...Jesus had seven churches in the book of Revelations and only one church did he not have to warn to change their ways...even warned that their name be blotted out of the book of life.

As for churches Jesus used a parable about 10 virgins...likened is the kingdom of heaven...the 10 virgins belong to Jesus...they are the bride and Jesus is the bridegroom...5 made it when the time was that the bride groom was to come and 5 did not...the oil made the difference...the 5 that made it was wise and the 5 that did not make was foolish and did not have enough oil...if bride of Christ you want to make it you have to finish your course and have the oil...hint the oil comes from the fruit...it is not the fruit but comes from the fruit...the oil is put in the lamp and gives light...the lamp is the commandment and the light is the law...not everyone that says Lord Lord will enter in.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

So I ask you, is a man saved without works?

Generally not, but if a man has faith and then dies before he can do any works, he is still saved, even as the thief on the cross next to Jesus was saved.

 

[St_Worm2]

So I ask you, is a man saved without works?

Hi Em, you know, that could be considered a pretty loaded question by some, so in the spirit that I know you asked it in, I'll answer it like this, yes and no

Before going on with my answer, let me ask you a question first. Did you act like a Christian before you became one, or after you became one?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

​

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which
we have done in righteousness, but
according to His mercy"
Titus 3:5​

​

 

[TheSeabass]

Yes, the right way to say this is not that good works will save us (they would always be insufficient) but that those who truly believe and are saved will be empowered and motivated by God Himself to do good works. It is ultimately about the grace of God and He will get all the credit. Grace yields faith yields works. If there are no works, then we must assume that there is no faith (as James taught). Without grace, there is no faith, and without faith there are no truly good works.

--Obedience in doing good works are required for one who is ALREADY a Christian to maintain his salvation.

--Obedience in doing the will of God (doing God's righteousness) is required for those that are not Christians to become one.

Acts 10:35 he that feareth God and 'worketh righteousness' is accepted with God.
1 John 3:10 whosoever continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God.


Obedient works are required to become saved and remain saved. Those that remain disobedient remain lost/remain 'not of God'.

You posted " If there are no works, then we must assume that there is no faith.." Your statement here eliminates 'faith only' but requires faith + works for, as you say yourself, no works = no faith.

 

[EmSw]

Hi Em, you know, that could be considered a pretty loaded question by some, so in the spirit that I know you asked it in, I'll answer it like this, yes and no

Before going on with my answer, let me ask you a question first. Did you act like a Christian before you became one, or after you became one?

Thanks!

Hello St Worm. I'm not asking with any guile. I see very few quote the following words from the Savior -

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

The only ones who come forth to the resurrection of life are those who have done good. I don't see any middle ground, any grey area, in His words. If it was by faith alone, I am sure Jesus would have surely told us.

Even your question to me assumes a Christians 'acts' differently than the unsaved, and not just believes differently.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Em, I didn't think there was any guile in what you said, I actually thought you asked an excellent question because, if I wanted to answer it honestly, it didn't allow me to give you a "simple" answer

And you are correct, a Christian does "act/talk/think" radically differently that he/she did as a non-C (well, unless they came to Christ as a young child, of course). If those who claim to have become Christians do not, then it is highly doubtful that their claim is anything more than that

As for verses like John 5:28-29, I can see at least two exegetical problems arising if they are simply taken at face value/out of context. 1) V29 effectively puts EVERYONE into both Heaven and Hell, because who among us has not "done good", and who among us has not "done evil"?

Hitler and Stalin did MANY things that were good, but they also did great evil, of course. Or perhaps you believe that God has us on the 50/50 plan? If we are, this verse certainly doesn't teach that, so belief in the 50/50 becomes a matter of pure conjecture (as does trying to decide how much good it takes to be considered "good" and how much "evil" it takes to be considered "evil".

And 2) The clear, didactic teaching of the Lord (i.e. John 3:16, John 3:18; John 5:24-25, John 20:31, etc) that tells us that we are saved by faith, by believing. If we are saved by "grace" through faith, then we cannot also be saved by what we "do" .. or "grace is no longer grace" (Romans 11:6).

Our first parents, who had no fallen nature besetting them, were unable to keep the "single" commandment that God gave them to obey. We have 613 commandments in the OT and 1,050 more in the NT that need to be obeyed (and that's just for starters, of course), and we have a fallen nature standing in our way to boot.

In fairness, we can reduce all of that down to two commandments: 1) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength, and 2) You shall love your neighbor as yourself. If you can just do those two things, you may well be part of the resurrection to life (as long as you have never failed to do both of them perfectly, that is .. even once .. James 2:10-11).

Of course, considering what those verses actually say, the question you really need to ask yourself is, "have I EVER done those two things .. EVEN ONCE?" (that's a question that all the sons and daughters of Adam/Eve need to ask themselves, actually )

So maybe St. Paul got it right after all, yes, IOW, that the the Laws that God told us we needed to follow were never given to us with the expectation that we might actually be able to keep them. Rather, they were given as a means of showing us that we can't obey them and, by doing so, help us see and acknowledge how sinful we really are.

The "Law", according to St. Paul (i.e. Galatians 3:24) was meant as a harsh "tutor", to teach us who we really are (that we are men and women WITHOUT hope apart from Christ), and then to drive us to the His feet in the hope of receiving mercy (instead of the judgment and condemnation that we rightly deserve).

Yours and His,
David

"To the one who does not work, but believes in
Him who justifies the wicked, his faith
is credited as righteousness"
Romans 4:5​