If God promised an eternity of suffering ...

[Sanoy]

The idea is found in Buddhist teachings. For example, the brahma devas are said to reside on a middle-level heaven in Buddhist cosmology. There is an account of a Brahma in the Buddhist scriptures who erroneously believed himself to be Eternal, the Creator, Almighty, Sovereign, Lord, and Father of All, and the brahma devas inferior to him believed likewise, because he was greater in power, beauty, etc. then they were.

The Gnostics had a similar view of Yahweh and so viewed lucifer like a Prometheus for man. A source of wisdom. In Judiasm, it is Lucifer who was the beautiful one who thought himself above all. But history reveals the nature of this challenge in identity. In more ancient Greek traditions Prometheus's father, Iapetus, was seen as bringing forth man's worst traits through his sons. In the ancient near east you can see this same theme as the "Devas" who brought wisdom switch from being revered to being accursed as a corrupting force on man. Of this dilemma of identity only one has humbled himself below all to rescue man with a life of healing, exorcism, and salvation, submitting to his love for mankind being not overcome by fear or concern for His suffering. This occurred while those called greater did nothing. It is easy for me to know whom to trust, not the one that "remembered a lie", but the one who suffered all for me.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It is a challenge to your first premise, and shows how it changes when corrected.

It is relevant to your syllogism because your first premise equivocates or confuses the nature of our free will with God's. That is the flaw. I am not an ECT person.

You know, you did accuse me displaying bad manners in our first encounter and then not only ignored me when I asked for details, but you redacted the quote entirely.

As for the flaw in my argument, again, I stated that we all deserve eternal hellfire and therefore God is not acting evil or against his nature to pass such judgement upon us. You've failed to address that as well.

 

[ananda]

The Gnostics had a similar view of Yahweh and so viewed lucifer like a Prometheus for man. A source of wisdom. In Judiasm, it is Lucifer who was the beautiful one who thought himself above all. But history reveals the nature of this challenge in identity. In more ancient Greek traditions Prometheus's father, Iapetus, was seen as bringing forth man's worst traits through his sons. In the ancient near east you can see this same theme as the "Devas" who brought wisdom switch from being revered to being accursed as a corrupting force on man. Of this dilemma of identity only one has humbled himself below all to rescue man with a life of healing, exorcism, and salvation, submitting to his love for mankind being not overcome by fear or concern for His suffering. This occurred while those called greater did nothing. It is easy for me to know whom to trust, not the one that "remembered a lie", but the one who suffered all for me.

What did he rescue man from?

The message of the Buddha rescued man from the cycle of suffering, the core problem afflicting mankind, IMO.

 

[Sanoy]

As for the flaw in my argument, again, I stated that we all deserve eternal hellfire and therefore God is not acting evil or against his nature to pass such judgement upon us. You've failed to address that as well.

I am not an ECT person. I said as much in my prior reply.

 

[Sanoy]

What did he rescue man from?

The message of the Buddha rescued man from the cycle of suffering, the core problem afflicting mankind, IMO.

satan.

Buddhas message rescused man from living. My God rescues from death, to newness of life and life abundantly.

 

[ananda]

Satan.

Buddhas message rescused man from living. My God rescues from death, to newness of life abundantly.

Not so! The Buddha's Message rescued man from suffering. He addressed the problem of suffering in relationship to the deepest level of phenomenological experience ... not on the far more superficial level of physical existence (e.g. life or death).

 

[Sanoy]

Not so! The Buddha's Message rescued man from suffering.

Like one who squashes a suffering bug. Had he power he would have given life, not destroyed it to save one from suffering.

 

[ananda]

Like one who squashes a suffering bug. Had he power he would have given life, not destroyed it to save one from suffering.

Not so. He gave the highest gift possible: the gift of his teaching and of his example, towards solving the deepest problem in life. After all, the deepest and most lasting changes one can effect in others towards greater skillfulness in their own lives is by setting a skillfull example ourselves, and by sharing our acquired wisdom without forcing it upon them.

"Saving" others - in other words, interfering with and imposing upon others' own situations in life, towards solving a lesser, more superficial problem - is not nearly as noble.

 

[Sanoy]

Not so. He gave the highest gift possible: the gift of his teaching and of his example, towards solving the deepest problem in life. After all, the deepest and most lasting changes one can effect in others towards greater skillfulness in their own lives is by setting a skillfull example ourselves, and through wisdom.

"Saving" others - in other words, interfering with others' own situations in life, towards solving a lesser problem - is not nearly as noble.

With due concern I told a Buddhist a few years back that he seemed dead, his posts devoid of life. He sincerely replied "Thanks"

Death of life is not the highest gift, it is the highest gift of the powerless. The highest gift is life abundantly, and that is given by one with power. I cannot praise the one who tells a caged eagle he is a worm so the eagle will look to the ground and not the sky. I will praise the one with the power to set the eagle free.

 

[ananda]

With due concern I told a Buddhist a few years back that he seemed dead, his posts devoid of life. He sincerely replied "Thanks"

Death of life is not the highest gift, it is the highest gift of the powerless. The highest gift is life abundantly, and that is given by one with power.

Again, you're discussing a different, more superficial plane of existence, when you speak about death and life.

In a way it's like you're focusing on the importance of the files on your computer desktop, whereas I'm focusing on the quantum states - the far deeper reality - which underlie those things.

 

[Sanoy]

Again, you're discussing a different, more superficial plane of existence, when you speak about death and life.

In a way it's like you're focusing on the importance of the files on your computer desktop, whereas I'm focusing on the quantum states - the far deeper reality - which underlie those things.

The Christian "Life" is the fulfilment of all aspects of life toward spirit and incorruptible bodies. I am speaking of higher things.

 

[ananda]

The Christian "Life" is the fulfilment of all aspects of life toward spirit and incorruptible bodies. I am speaking of higher things.

Yes, that is the claim of Christianity.

 

[Sanoy]

Yes, that is the claim of Christianity.

Yes we have discussed the claims of Christ and Buddha. The powerful, and the powerless. Life, and the walking dead.

 

[ananda]

Yes we have discussed the claims of Christ and Buddha. The powerful, and the powerless. Life, and the walking dead.

From my perspective, the discussion is actually between life/death (Christ) vs the experience of suffering (Buddha).

 

[Sanoy]

From my perspective, the discussion is actually between life/death (Christ) vs the experience of suffering (Buddha).

From mine it is to avoid suffering through the abandonment of life, and the fulfilment of everything you were meant to be. A caged eagle who accepts the lie that he is a worm that he might not suffer at the sight of the sky, and the eagle freed from the cage to soar in the heavens.

 

[ananda]

From mine it is to avoid suffering through the abandonment of life, and the fulfilment of everything you were meant to be. A caged eagle who accepts the lie that he is a worm that he might not suffer at the sight of the sky, and the eagle freed from the cage to soar in the heavens.

I don't recall reading anything about abandoning life in the Buddha's words.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I am not an ECT person. I said as much in my prior reply.

I don't know why you would reach out saying you want to have a rational conversation, and then make accusations against me while refusing to back them up, all while continuing to ignore over half of what I say. Well, have a good day.

 

[Sanoy]

I don't know why you would reach out saying you want to have a rational conversation, and then make accusations against me while refusing to back them up, all while continuing to ignore over half of what I say. Well, have a good day.

I want to stay on topic, which is your argument, the very thing you kept saying no one could address. Ironically, now it is the rebuttal that is "being avoided". Till next time then.

 

[Sanoy]

I don't recall reading anything about abandoning life in the Buddha's words.

That Buddhist I mentioned? He told me that was his pursuit, to achieve what would appear like he was dead. The void, neither life nor death but emptiness, devoid of all things.

 

[ananda]

That Buddhist I mentioned? He told me that was his pursuit, to achieve what would appear like he was dead. The void, neither life nor death but emptiness, devoid of all things.

I see. That is not what I believe the Buddha taught, IMO.

Instead, it advocates a process of continual growth towards the highest goal (nibbana). An example from mundane life would be how we as adults abandon many of the pleasures we've used to enjoy as children. A child can argue that we are "abandoning life" as he perceives it; for example, when we give up playing with toy dinosaurs to take up the higher pleasure of reading and learning. In the same way, a Buddhist, in the practice of the Eightfold Path, continues his journey beyond what normal adults would consider the ordinary joys of "life" towards far more sublime joys, towards the end of the Path in the highest bliss of all, nibbana.