If God is, and always has been, omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that...?

trophy33

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If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

Comments...?

God Bless!
I like what Leibniz said about all this in his book "Theodicy".

He was a genius of the enlightenment era and rationalism and his purely logical and pious views are worthy reading.

The book "Theodicy" was written as a philosophical response to a known Calvinist P. Bayle in France.

Its fully free and online.
 
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HTacianas

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If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

What you are describing is Calvinism. There is a way to pick your way through the bible and find enough support for that idea to convince others that it is the way things are. But then when taken as a whole, the bible refutes it. The belief of the Orthodox Church (established long before Calvinism) is best summed up in the Confession of Dositheus of 1672:

We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He has chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He has rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that would be contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth {1 Timothy 2:4}. But since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other.
 
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Rescued One

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God is all-powerful and all-knowing. Jesus told us to pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Is God unable to have His will? Why did a Wesleyan pastor say "Pray for your loved ones' salvation, but don't become discouraged if they're never saved. Even God can't make that happen." :scratch:

Proverbs 16
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Jeremiah 10
23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Isaiah 14
27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Isaiah 43
13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

I'm wondering how man can stop God or cause Him to do something.
 
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Rescued One

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Your reasoning can't negate God's word, or can it?

2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 
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trophy33

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Your reasoning can't negate God's word, or can it?

2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
If you cant do anything, you are not guilty.

A cat is not guilty that it cannot drive a car.
 
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Rescued One

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If you cant do anything, you are not guilty.

A cat is not guilty that it cannot drive a car.

Every person who isn't comatose can do something.

Not sure why a cat has anything to do with this.
 
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Quasiblogo

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Our worship is to Messiah Jesus, and once His Name leaves our lips, the name "His Bride" follows. Forever interconnected. The Groom is in eternal relationship with His Bride. Eternally betrothed, soon to be eternally married. The Husband will dwell with His Spouse according to knowledge. "He will rest in His love" (Zephaniah 3:17) and we shall rest in Him.
 
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If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

Comments...?

God Bless!
No
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Trying to understand predestination/free will is like trying to fully understand the Trinity.

With our little minds just a little out of our grasp.

Regarding free will --
Man gets hung up at times being so concerned about what he thinks is fair. Shouldn't push God on that matter. Remember Job.
M-Bob
 
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Rescued One

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Therefore we have a free choice.

If our getting out of Satan's power is our choice even though it was Satan's will that put us there, and the Bible says "if peradventure God will set us free," how can we set ourselves free?

See 2 Tim. 2:25.
 
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SkyWriting

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If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

With man, full control and free will both would not be possible.
But with God, having both are possible. God gives examples of this.
You might have thought man has created government?
Npt according to scripture.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
 
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watchman 2

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It's all about frameworks of understand .

In our framework of understanding , " A " is either " A " or not " A " .

In God's framework of understanding , " A " is " A" and not " A " at the same time . God's framework of understanding is paradoxical . Learning God's paradoxical truths , takes a minimum 6 months at a University level teaching .

Not being aware of this paradoxical framework of Gods understanding , results in two people sitting on opposite poles of the paradoxical truth throwing mud at each other .
 
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I will try to explain how I understand this topic. God created everything, and among other characteristics, according to general Judeo-Christian view, He is All-powerful All-knowing and All-Good. The Bible says that He created the man in His own image. So if we want to understand God we need to look inwardly. If we, being far from perfect are able to love our children and yet give them privacy in their room how much more freedom can we receive from our perfect father. Now lets try to compare ourselves again. if our children do something bad we are sending them in their room to spend some time thinking about the act. If your child after being sent there commits suicide will that be your fault and who will be the saddest person on earth because of that. Again, God created The Heavens, The Hell and The Earth. Bible says that since Adam we are not in Heaven and that means that we are living outside the perfect realm of God. I understand Heaven as a place where the power of God is absolute and it is embraced by all who dwell there. Hell is a place where God does not access not because He is not Able but because He is Good and does not want to violate the privacy of the individuals who dwell there and do not seek His Presence. Earth or the material Universe is the third realm that was created and it is like a war battle of ideas. Humans are influenced by the wonders of creation and salvation on One side and Chaos or the possibility of freedom without restrictions on the other. The realms of Heaven and Hell are colliding on Earth and that is why it appears to non believers that since there is suffering on Earth God is not All-Knowing or All-Powerful or All-Good.
The following is perfect example of why God is not helping you if you don't believe or ask from Him:
Matthew 13:58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
Finally, Earth - material universe exists in space and time, God and Heaven on the other side is not bound by any boundaries, and yes He is able to help us even on Earth, but His own Goodness is not allowing Him to violate our privacy.
Jesus is God with us. He said- John 8:58 "before Abraham Was I Am" Again here we can see that He lives in timeless realm because we clearly see past and present tense used in the same sentence. He knows the future from the beginning and to us if we don't believe in Him it can look unfair, but that is only because we don't know everything and we don't believe that there is afterlife. We are souls inside a body. Our bodies just like the whole created Universe will end. But before that every eye will see the return of Christ. Do not wait until then, invite Christ inside and start experiencing the Heaven even now by trusting in Him only.


Love you in Christ.
 
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trophy33

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Being able to do something doesn't change your heart to do what is right.
We have everything what is needed to make good choices. Thats why people are guilty and under the judgement of God, without Christ.

You cannot be guilty if you are a robot or a prisoner not able to do what is commanded by God. You can be destroyed as useless or broken, but you cannot be morally guilty without freedom of your choice.
 
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devin553344

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If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

I could decide to kill someone and go to hell for it. But since I'm Christian I obey Christian laws which state not to kill. I choose to be good. It's a choice not pre-destiny. As many criminals find out after they go to jail.
 
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