If free will (choice) is only a mirage....

Dave L

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Very mysterious saying. Does this mean that a believer will generally live holy and yet they cannot overcome grievous sin in this life and they will eventually stumble at certain points and when they do stumble on occasion they are automatically saved?
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10) (KJV 1900)
 
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Kaon

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For those who believe free will is only a mirage and we don't really have it for the most important human choice, because it would negate God's Sovereignty somehow:

(1) Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation? Why don't you expect that He would make us so like Him in the instant--so as to be His perfect living epistles in this fallen world, so as to have a very clear dividing line--between those He has chosen and those He has not? Afterall, if we are concerned about how God's sovereignty looks slighted when people have choice, then how much more impotent does the Almighty God appear when the wholly chosen don't look any different than those who won't be saved?

(2) But, if God has, in His amazing Absolutely Sovereign choice, chosen to gift us with free will to make our own choices with regards to our walk with Him, we have a much clearer picture of why the visible church looks the way it does and why even truly InSpirited believers don't agree on everything. Then, the deficiencies in our walk are not His, but ours. The deficiencies in believer's unity are not His, but ours. And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

Nothing fallen has FREE will to do what they want to do; everyone is constrained to limits of choice and exploit. Moreover, everything that will happen has already happened - so what you think of as "free" will is actually a collection of processes already made; you just so happen to think the result is unique.

We have the limited will of choosing our Father, and who we follow. This life will reveal to all of us why we are already where we are spiritually - through painstaking, linear "time".
 
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“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10) (KJV 1900)

There are two ways OSAS proponents interpret this verse.

Some OSAS Proponents will say that 1 John 3:9-10 is talking exclusively about habitual sin (but that it is impossible to stop sinning this side of Heaven), and other OSAS Proponents will say that 1 John 3:9-10 say that when they sin, the penalty of sin is not imputed to them because of their belief on Jesus. They believe the "does righteousness" is believing on Jesus and His finished work.

Calvinists believe that a person is regenerated to live holy, but yet they also contradict themselves and say that they can sin and still be saved on some level (i.e. they can stumble on occasion and yet they are still automatically saved by having a belief on Jesus). But what if a Calvinist finds themselves backslidden into a life of sin? Are they unsaved? What is the difference between a backslidden life of sin versus abiding in one or two unrepentant sins done on occasion? Does not sin cause the same result (Which is death)? (See Romans 6:23). Does the amount of time one is in sin really change anything?

As for the real Biblical approach or interpretation on 1 John 3:9:

Well, I see two possible interpretations for 1 John 3:9.

Possible Interpretation #1.

A person who is born of God cannot commit sin while in the born again state and while they are abiding in Christ. 1 John 3:6 says whosoever abides in him sins not. It says that he that sins has neither seen him nor known him. This could be in reference to Ezekiel 18:24 that says that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness, all his previous righteousness will not be remembered. Seeing the Lord associates with the righteous, it will be like He never knew them.​

Possible Interpretation #2.

1 John 3:9 could also be in reference to the false gnostics who justified the idea that sin was an illusion or did not exist. John warns against this false gnostic belief in 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10. Christian Scientists believe sin is an illusion and is not real. So these verses would be a warning to them. 1 John 3:9 is in light of the false gnostic belief that justifies sin (or denies sins existence - 1 John 1:8). Such gnostics have never been born of God and have never seen the real Jesus and or neither have they known Him (1 John 3:6). "Does not commit sin" in 1 John 3:9 is in reference to "justifying sin" with the thinking that one is still saved while doing so. The true way of dealing with sin is confessing it (1 John 1:9) and forsaking it (1 John 1:7) (Also see Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41 cf Jonah 3:6-10).​
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Don't worry about anything. Do not be anxious for anything.

Just do what you want to do. If that's not free will, so what. If it is, so what. Just do what you want to do. (unless it is a crime against God or humanity/ hurst anyone/ o rhurst yourself) :)

If free will is a mirage, so what ? Big deal... nah... small potatoes. Not worth thinking about, let alone wasting time on , right ? Y'all CHOOSE for your self......
 
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Don't worry about anything. Do not be anxious for anything.

Just do what you want to do. If that's not free will, so what. If it is, so what. Just do what you want to do. (unless it is a crime against God or humanity/ hurst anyone/ o rhurst yourself) :)

If free will is a mirage, so what ? Big deal... nah... small potatoes. Not worth thinking about, let alone wasting time on , right ? Y'all CHOOSE for your self......

The problem with saying that there is no free will is that it places the blame on God for sin and salvation and it mocks the judgment and His good and loving character.
 
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YeshuaFan

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While God can allow sin or permit it, God never decrees sin and evil. The cross was about salvation. It was not a sinful event. God might have used sinful men's actions for a greater plan for good, but that is not the same thing as God approving of their individual murderous actions. God allowed or permitted the crucifixion of our Lord to take place for the salvation of mankind.
Isaiah 53 shows to us that it pleaswed God the father to have His Son crushed/wounded/bruised/killed off for our sales, and Jesus was willing to endure for the sake of the Joy that was to come after when God would bring many sinners to salvation in Christ!
 
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YeshuaFan

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While God can allow sin or permit it, God never decrees sin and evil. The cross was about salvation. It was not a sinful event. God might have used sinful men's actions for a greater plan for good, but that is not the same thing as God approving of their individual murderous actions. God allowed or permitted the crucifixion of our Lord to take place for the salvation of mankind.
The Cross was the mnost wicked act of sin ever did, as mankind killed off their Creator there, but also was the most glorious event in history, as God finally put into place the solution to sin/evil/the fall etc!
 
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Isaiah 53 shows to us that it pleaswed God the father to have His Son crushed/wounded/bruised/killed off for our sales, and Jesus was willing to endure for the sake of the Joy that was to come after when God would bring many sinners to salvation in Christ!

Right. That is why it was not a sinful event. Jesus was a sin offering for all of mankind. That is why it pleased the Father. He died for man's sins so as to offer man the free gift of salvation to all who would receive it and be responsible with such said gift.
 
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The Cross was the mnost wicked act of sin ever did, as mankind killed off their Creator there, but also was the most glorious event in history, as God finally put into place the solution to sin/evil/the fall etc!

No. The Bible does not ever say anything like that. That is you saying that. God did not consider the act of the cross as sinful because it was for salvation. Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world. That is not a sinful thing, but it was a godly thing. Sure, the men who did those bad things against the creator were doing it for sinful reasons, but like in the story of Joseph, what his brothers intended for evil against Joseph, God intended it for good in the end. God has a way of taking the evil actions of men and turning it around for that which is for a good purpose. These men would have done sinful things regardless. God did not push or cause these men to crucify Jesus and do bad things against their own free will. They chose of their own free will to do evil to Jesus. Therein lies the difference that you are not getting. God is able to use men's free willed decisions whether bad or good for His greater plan for good.
 
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YeshuaFan

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No. The Bible does not ever say anything like that. That is you saying that. God did not consider the act of the cross as sinful because it was for salvation. Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world. That is not a sinful thing, but it was a godly thing. Sure, the men who did those bad things against the creator were doing it for sinful reasons, but like in the story of Joseph, what his brothers intended for evil against Joseph, God intended it for good in the end. God has a way of taking the evil actions of men and turning it around for that which is for a good purpose. These men would have done sinful things regardless. God did not push or cause these men to crucify Jesus and do bad things against their own free will. They chose of their own free will to do evil to Jesus. Therein lies the difference that you are not getting. God is able to use men's free willed decisions whether bad or good for His greater plan for good.
I get very well the Cross of Christ!
 
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Dave L

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Can you define what "being born again" is in scriptural terms?
“And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” (Deuteronomy 30:6) (KJV 1900)

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33) (KJV 1900)

“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:28–29) (KJV 1900)

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23) (KJV 1900)
 
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martymonster

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“And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” (Deuteronomy 30:6) (KJV 1900)

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33) (KJV 1900)

“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:28–29) (KJV 1900)

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23) (KJV 1900)


But you do realise, that being born again, is not just something we decide to do, right? Being born again, is becoming a new creation, which we cannot do for ourselves. The Creator is the only one who makes a new creation.


Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.



I'm pointing this out because you said anything I disagree with, I just want to clarify that being born again, isn't just something we decide to do, like most Christian's think it is.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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Nothing fallen has FREE will to do what they want to do; everyone is constrained to limits of choice and exploit. Moreover, everything that will happen has already happened - so what you think of as "free" will is actually a collection of processes already made; you just so happen to think the result is unique.

We have the limited will of choosing our Father, and who we follow. This life will reveal to all of us why we are already where we are spiritually - through painstaking, linear "time".

I understand that is what you believe. I disagree. That which wasn't fallen also had a choice and that is why we are fallen. And, yet, Noah found grace in God's sight.

God's big picture will happen. I agree with you on that. But which moving players are with Him is not completely fore-ordained, which choices are made is not completely predetermined, because God can change outcomes.

God CAN and DOES allow choice to impact our destiny, though He knew what choices we would make is because our timeline is within Him. It isn't because He foreordained some to make bad choices and some to make good choices. It is what they did with what He gave them, like lucifer turned satan, for example.

I wholeheartedly believe that the Absolute Sovereign God and Father of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will do exactly what He said He will do. Our choice--which He allows and patiently endures--doesn't impair His abilities at all. But, that doesn't mean that an individual's situation within that bigger picture isn't changed by our choice (which God allows by His Sovereign choice). See the only reason I don't believe we are simply robots, is because God wanted those who would choose Him. You can't have that, if you don't allow that. Make no mistake, I agree that if God didn't give us free will, we wouldn't have it. God made that choice. Not satan. Not Adam. If God hadn't made that choice, we would simply be robots with flesh and bones instead of wires and metal/plastic parts.
 
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Dave L

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But you do realise, that being born again, is not just something we decide to do, right? Being born again, is becoming a new creation, which we cannot do for ourselves. The Creator is the only one who makes a new creation.


Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.



I'm pointing this out because you said anything I disagree with, I just want to clarify that being born again, isn't just something we decide to do, like most Christian's think it is.
We have no more to say about our new birth than we had to say about our physical birth. It is God's call, not ours.
 
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Kaon

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I understand that is what you believe. I disagree. That which wasn't fallen also had a choice and that is why we are fallen. And, yet, Noah found grace in God's sight.

God's big picture will happen. I agree with you on that. But which moving players are with Him is not completely fore-ordained, which choices are made is not completely predetermined, because God can change outcomes.

God CAN and DOES allow choice to impact our destiny, though He knew what choices we would make is because our timeline is within Him. It isn't because He foreordained some to make bad choices and some to make good choices. It is what they did with what He gave them, like lucifer turned satan, for example.

I wholeheartedly believe that the Absolute Sovereign God and Father of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will do exactly what He said He will do. Our choice--which He allows and patiently endures--doesn't impair His abilities at all. But, that doesn't mean that an individual's situation within that bigger picture isn't changed by our choice (which God allows by His Sovereign choice). See the only reason I don't believe we are simply robots, is because God wanted those who would choose Him. You can't have that, if you don't allow that. Make no mistake, I agree that if God didn't give us free will, we wouldn't have it. God made that choice. Not satan. Not Adam. If God hadn't made that choice, we would simply be robots with flesh and bones instead of wires and metal/plastic parts.

You are mixing free POWER to do something, and free CHOICE.

I never said we don't have a choice, I said we don't have free will or range to do what we want to do. We do not create our own Heaven; we are not masters of our universes. We do not control our destiny.

But, do we have a choice to cry about it, or recover for example. We have a choice on how we choose to respond to stimuli.


There is no such thing as free will, because that is reserved for righteous entities. What entity that has fallen can do anything they want to do? That defeats Sovereignty. We have the choice to respond to stimuli, not control it.

Prophecy also shows this: the fact that one's future can be accurately mapped shows that events are predictable. What isn't predictable is response.
 
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