If free will (choice) is only a mirage....

[Bible Highlighter]

If you actually believe God forces people to sin, then you got bigger problems than me. I cannot help you if you think God is capable of doing evil or that He condones evil. There is no darkness in God. God is good.

God may allow or permit evil for a greater purpose of good, but God never decrees evil or sin upon anyone. A person chooses of their own free will to sin, and if God sees that is what they want instead of God, then God allows them to continue in their deception to continue sinning. It is their choice (and not God's choice) after all. God never wants anyone to sin or do evil.

 

[YeshuaFan]

God is not the omnipotent creator if he does not cause and control everything.

God also factors into this the decisions that third parties will choose to make, as He is either directly or indirectly determining the final outcomes!
God ordained that the Cross of Christ would be where the problem of Sin would be fully dealt with, but also permitted sinners to do what they wanted to nail Jesus upon that Cross!

 

[Dave L]

No. God is not forcing anyone to sin. They have already chosen to sin already. In essence God is allowing a person's own free will to determine their own judgment. If a person continues in sin, God will allow them to be blinded to their own sin or deception because that is what they want instead of God.

The problem is there are none righteous (choose nothing but sin) unless God intervenes and frees a persons will to pursue righteousness through the New Birth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem is there are none righteous (choose nothing but sin) unless God intervenes and frees a persons will to pursue righteousness through the New Birth.

This is a general statement that is said of the Gentiles. But Scripture also says,

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God also factors into this the decisions that third parties will choose to make, as He is either directly or indirectly determining the final outcomes!
God ordained that the Cross of Christ would be where the problem of Sin would be fully dealt with, but also permitted sinners to do what they wanted to nail Jesus upon that Cross!

While God can allow sin or permit it, God never decrees sin and evil. The cross was about salvation. It was not a sinful event. God might have used sinful men's actions for a greater plan for good, but that is not the same thing as God approving of their individual murderous actions. God allowed or permitted the crucifixion of our Lord to take place for the salvation of mankind.

 

[Dave L]

This is a general statement that is said of the Gentiles. But Scripture also says,

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).

“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” (Romans 3:11) (KJV 1900)

 

[Butch5]

For those who believe free will is only a mirage and we don't really have it for the most important human choice, because it would negate God's Sovereignty somehow:

(1) Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation? Why don't you expect that He would make us so like Him in the instant--so as to be His perfect living epistles in this fallen world, so as to have a very clear dividing line--between those He has chosen and those He has not? Afterall, if we are concerned about how God's sovereignty looks slighted when people have choice, then how much more impotent does the Almighty God appear when the wholly chosen don't look any different than those who won't be saved?

(2) But, if God has, in His amazing Absolutely Sovereign choice, chosen to gift us with free will to make our own choices with regards to our walk with Him, we have a much clearer picture of why the visible church looks the way it does and why even truly InSpirited believers don't agree on everything. Then, the deficiencies in our walk are not His, but ours. The deficiencies in believer's unity are not His, but ours. And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

I think we need to reject the Reformed definition of sovereignty as it doesn't fit the real definition. The definition of sovereign is, the ultimate authority. It doesn't mean one controls everything that happens. God can be sovereign and not control all things. Too often these discussions start off with a false premise, that being that God controls everything that happens.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

For those who believe free will is only a mirage and we don't really have it for the most important human choice, because it would negate God's Sovereignty somehow:

(1) Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation? Why don't you expect that He would make us so like Him in the instant--so as to be His perfect living epistles in this fallen world, so as to have a very clear dividing line--between those He has chosen and those He has not? Afterall, if we are concerned about how God's sovereignty looks slighted when people have choice, then how much more impotent does the Almighty God appear when the wholly chosen don't look any different than those who won't be saved?

(2) But, if God has, in His amazing Absolutely Sovereign choice, chosen to gift us with free will to make our own choices with regards to our walk with Him, we have a much clearer picture of why the visible church looks the way it does and why even truly InSpirited believers don't agree on everything. Then, the deficiencies in our walk are not His, but ours. The deficiencies in believer's unity are not His, but ours. And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” (Romans 3:11) (KJV 1900)

So the Christian does not understand and seek after God?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Free will only reacts to conditions God uses to control us. In this way you have free will and choose what you want. But God controls your choice by providing the conditions you base your choices on.

Dave, this is the best I've read you explain your point of view before. Thank you! But, if you believe this now, it appears to be a slight change for you. Because if it is truly free will and it reacts to conditions God uses, then it is possible for someone to choose to act in a way that is contrary to expectation (act outside their nature) and thus choose differently than God steered them to.

Who else can exercise power of their own accord if God is omnipotent?

I agree with A Thinker on this. The definition in at least one Bible study tool:

omnipotent
OMNIP'OTENT, a. supra.

1. Almighty; possessing unlimited power; all powerful. The being that can create worlds must be omnipotent.

All powerful means able to do whatever He wants. It means He must be able to control every outcome; but it doesn't mean He has to control every outcome. He doesn't have to prove His omnipotence every second.

If He did micromanage every choice, people wouldn't be able to make the bad decisions they do, because God is good.

 

[martymonster]

If you adhere to the doctrine of eternal punishment, then it is necessary for you to hold to the doctrine of freewill also, otherwise, how would you let God off the hook, for any wrong doing?

 

[SkyWriting]

For those who believe free will is only a mirage and we don't really have it for the most important human choice, because it would negate God's Sovereignty somehow:

(1) Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation? Why don't you expect that He would make us so like Him in the instant--so as to be His perfect living epistles in this fallen world, so as to have a very clear dividing line--between those He has chosen and those He has not? Afterall, if we are concerned about how God's sovereignty looks slighted when people have choice, then how much more impotent does the Almighty God appear when the wholly chosen don't look any different than those who won't be saved?

(2) But, if God has, in His amazing Absolutely Sovereign choice, chosen to gift us with free will to make our own choices with regards to our walk with Him, we have a much clearer picture of why the visible church looks the way it does and why even truly InSpirited believers don't agree on everything. Then, the deficiencies in our walk are not His, but ours. The deficiencies in believer's unity are not His, but ours. And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

That's what I've been saying. God can handle both. Man has no grasp how it could be so.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, this is the best I've read you explain your point of view before. Thank you! But, if you believe this now, it appears to be a slight change for you. Because if it is truly free will and it reacts to conditions God uses, then it is possible for someone to choose to act in a way that is contrary to expectation (act outside their nature) and thus choose differently than God steered them to.



I agree with A Thinker on this. The definition in at least one Bible study tool:

omnipotent
OMNIP'OTENT, a. supra.

1. Almighty; possessing unlimited power; all powerful. The being that can create worlds must be omnipotent.

All powerful means able to do whatever He wants. It means He must be able to control every outcome; but it doesn't mean He has to control every outcome. He doesn't have to prove His omnipotence every second.

If He did micromanage every choice, people wouldn't be able to make the bad decisions they do, because God is good.

People always react for a reason. If you choose a different course of action, it is for the reason God used to prompt that change.

 

[Dave L]

So the Christian does not understand and seek after God?

Only those who are born again.

 

[Chris V++]

So what is the Calvinist approach to giving comfort and encouragement to those seeking the Lord but haven't quite found Him yet. People introduce themselves on this forum who are obviously in pain and who are asking, seeking, and knocking, and who are maybe stuck in sin or have been abused by sinful people. What should be said to them. Wouldn't it be disingenuous to say anything but "some are predestined to die and go to Hell and others are predestined for to be born again and saved, and prayer is the privilege of the saved, so until then, if then ever comes, keep your fingers crossed."

 

[BBAS 64]

So what is the Calvinist approach to giving comfort and encouragement to those seeking the Lord but haven't quite found Him yet. People introduce themselves on this forum who are obviously in pain and who are asking, seeking, and knocking, and who are maybe stuck in sin or have been abused by sinful people. What should be said to them. Wouldn't it be disingenuous to say anything but "some are predestined to die and go to Hell and others are predestined for to be born again and saved, and prayer is the privilege of the saved, so until then, if then ever comes, keep your fingers crossed."

Good day, Chris

There is a very solid understanding with in the doctrines of Grace that the true seekers are displaying the work of God with in their hearts and for some that is a process that the Holy Spirit takes them though. They are seeking because God has found them. " I once was lost, but now I am found"

CS Lewis describes it has the Hounds of Heaven tracking him down relentlessly.

I know I went though it with my brother it is truly a wonderful thing to watch God work in the lives of his children and they begin to get a glimpse of of God their adopting father, and their own brokenness before them... Amazing Grace.

Spurgeon did a great little work called advise for seekers you might find that helpful:

https://www.chapellibrary.org/files/6213/7643/2878/afse.pdf

In Him,

Bill

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Only those who are born again.

What about the other verses in that chapter like Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23?
Are you saying that born again believers do not presently sin?

 

[Dave L]

What about the other verses in that chapter like Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23?
Are you saying that born again believers do not presently sin?

Christians are sinners saved by grace. We do not continue to live in sin after being born again.

 

[Dave L]

So what is the Calvinist approach to giving comfort and encouragement to those seeking the Lord but haven't quite found Him yet. People introduce themselves on this forum who are obviously in pain and who are asking, seeking, and knocking, and who are maybe stuck in sin or have been abused by sinful people. What should be said to them. Wouldn't it be disingenuous to say anything but "some are predestined to die and go to Hell and others are predestined for to be born again and saved, and prayer is the privilege of the saved, so until then, if then ever comes, keep your fingers crossed."

If they are frightened about going to hell it is because they believe (are saved) and don't know it. If they were not, they wouldn't be concerned in the least about their salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Christians are sinners saved by grace. We do not continue to live in sin after being born again.

Very mysterious saying. Does this mean that a believer will generally live holy and yet they cannot overcome grievous sin in this life and they will eventually stumble at certain points and when they do stumble on occasion they are automatically saved?