If free will (choice) is only a mirage....

[messianist]

Only God has free will,

He created us for his

Would you tell your children that their lives are not their own but belong to you?

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own.

For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

He is the alfa and the omega everything comes from him and never returns void.

 

[messianist]

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.” (1 Corinthians 6:19–20) (KJV 1900)

Only now seen you posted this before me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God willed that Ahab would sin.

“And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:20–23) (KJV 1900)

Why pray "lead us not into temptation" if God does not do so?

“And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” (Matthew 6:13) (KJV 1900)

No. That is not biblical.

James 1:13-14 says,
13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."

2 Chronicles 18 and 1 Kings 22 tells us that God tries to persuade Ahab to accept his warnings.

1 Kings 22 below shows that God simply allowed King Ahab to do what he already wanted and had set his mind to – i.e., to listen to his false prophets. King Ahab of Israel twice complained to King Jehoshaphat of Judah that the Lord’s prophet Micaiah never says anything good about him but only speaks calamity. Ahab was not thankful for God’s warning to him which he chose to reject, and he was resentful once Micaiah gave him the word of the Lord. God extended even more patience toward Ahab by having Micaiah tell the king exactly what evil spirits had been doing to plot his downfall, but Ahab rejected this further warning as well. If God’s intent was to command demons to lie and deceive Ahab, why would He bother warning Ahab about it? What would be the point with trying to warn Ahab against the very disaster to which he was trying to entice him?!

When we read only certain phrases in 1 Kings 22 it may sound as though God is the direct causal agent to what happened, but if we are honest and read the whole context we get another picture. Micaiah says to Ahab: “Now therefore behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.” The word for ”evil” in Hebrew may also be translated as disaster or calamity, and it’s not uncommon at all to see God punishing Israel (for their rebellion against him) by causing calamity to happen. This can easily be done by taking away his protective hand over Israel and by doing so allow the enemy to be victorious in their desire to conquer Israel – which their hearts are set upon. God is described by Micaiah as someone who has put a lying spirit in the mouth of the false prophets, while the context shows that God is doing this by permission and not by a commandment, and he even warns Ahab in the process. It’s an idiomatic way of speaking which the entire context of 1 Kings 22 demonstrates. “The Lord hath sent a lying spirit” is a stronger way of including God’s overall power than merely stating “God has allowed a lying spirit”. The lying spirit helps the false prophets to speak lies to Ahab about all that the king himself wants to believe about his future. God is not sending Ahab what He (God) wants but rather what Ahab wants! Certainly a bad choice by Ahab.

2 Chronicles 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the Lord; I saw the Lord sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.19 And the Lord said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith?21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.

Same story, but in Kings:

1 King. 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Note that God is asking ”who shall entice Ahab?” and ”wherewith?” when a certain spirit volunteered to do it and explained how he intended to do it. God did not take the other route by selecting a spirit and telling him ”This is what I will cause you to do through predestination”, but instead he allowed/granted the spirit to do what he proposed to do which was what Ahab in fact asked for.

As for praying for the Lord's protection against temptation:

This does not mean God wants us to be tempted. It merely means we have to desire to not be tempted and we have to seek God for protection against being tempted. Nowhere does it say God tempts man to sin or that He causes men to sin. That is just wrong to say that. God is good.


Source used:
Did God cause a lying spirit to entice Ahab? – 1 Kings 22 and 2 Chr. 18

 

[Dave L]

No. That is not biblical.

James 1:13-14 says,
13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."

2 Chronicles 18 and 1 Kings 22 tells us that God tries to persuade Ahab to accept his warnings.

1 Kings 22 below shows that God simply allowed King Ahab to do what he already wanted and had set his mind to – i.e., to listen to his false prophets. King Ahab of Israel twice complained to King Jehoshaphat of Judah that the Lord’s prophet Micaiah never says anything good about him but only speaks calamity. Ahab was not thankful for God’s warning to him which he chose to reject, and he was resentful once Micaiah gave him the word of the Lord. God extended even more patience toward Ahab by having Micaiah tell the king exactly what evil spirits had been doing to plot his downfall, but Ahab rejected this further warning as well. If God’s intent was to command demons to lie and deceive Ahab, why would He bother warning Ahab about it? What would be the point with trying to warn Ahab against the very disaster to which he was trying to entice him?!

When we read only certain phrases in 1 Kings 22 it may sound as though God is the direct causal agent to what happened, but if we are honest and read the whole context we get another picture. Micaiah says to Ahab: “Now therefore behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.” The word for ”evil” in Hebrew may also be translated as disaster or calamity, and it’s not uncommon at all to see God punishing Israel (for their rebellion against him) by causing calamity to happen. This can easily be done by taking away his protective hand over Israel and by doing so allow the enemy to be victorious in their desire to conquer Israel – which their hearts are set upon. God is described by Micaiah as someone who has put a lying spirit in the mouth of the false prophets, while the context shows that God is doing this by permission and not by a commandment, and he even warns Ahab in the process. It’s an idiomatic way of speaking which the entire context of 1 Kings 22 demonstrates. “The Lord hath sent a lying spirit” is a stronger way of including God’s overall power than merely stating “God has allowed a lying spirit”. The lying spirit helps the false prophets to speak lies to Ahab about all that the king himself wants to believe about his future. God is not sending Ahab what He (God) wants but rather what Ahab wants! Certainly a bad choice by Ahab.

2 Chronicles 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the Lord; I saw the Lord sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.19 And the Lord said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith?21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.

Same story, but in Kings:

1 King. 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Note that God is asking ”who shall entice Ahab?” and ”wherewith?” when a certain spirit volunteered to do it and explained how he intended to do it. God did not take the other route by selecting a spirit and telling him ”This is what I will cause you to do through predestination”, but instead he allowed/granted the spirit to do what he proposed to do which was what Ahab in fact asked for.

As for praying for the Lord's protection against temptation:

This does not mean God wants us to be tempted. It merely means we have to desire to not be tempted and we have to seek God for protection against being tempted. Nowhere does it say God tempts man to sin or that He causes men to sin. That is just wrong to say that. God is good.


Source used:
Did God cause a lying spirit to entice Ahab? – 1 Kings 22 and 2 Chr. 18

How can the bible be "not biblical"? Maybe your ideas about God are off?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How can the bible be "not biblical"? Maybe your ideas about God are off?

Please address the points I made with Scripture; Otherwise it just makes it seem like you are hitting the disagree button without any real rhyme or reason.

 

[Dave L]

The fact that a person can violate God's will by disobeying His commands proves Calvinism is false. It is not God's will that any should sin because God Himself cannot agree with sin and or sin Himself. God is holy. God may allow us to sin of our own choice, but that does not mean it was God's plan or will for our life. God is good; And He desires us to live holy and righteous by our surrendering to His working within us (after we accept Jesus as our Savior and believe in His death and resurrection for salvation). If God is the One who is the Force Initiator (Based on no Conditions) of Salvation or in Being Lost, then it would be unloving of God to not force save everyone if that is indeed how He saves.

Please address the points I made with Scripture; Otherwise it just makes it seem like you are hitting the disagree button without any real rhyme or reason.

I was only proving your understanding of sin is not based in scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was only proving your understanding of sin is not based in scripture.

You didn't prove anything but the fact that you can quote Scripture out of context to support a wrong conclusion. You can however try explain the verses that I brought forth that destroys what you said, though.

 

[Dave L]

You didn't prove anything but the fact that you can quote Scripture out of context to support a wrong conclusion. You can however try explain the verses that I brought forth that destroys what you said, though.

I offered no interpretation. Just scripture showing your understanding of God and sin is incorrect.

 

[devin553344]

For those who believe free will is only a mirage and we don't really have it for the most important human choice, because it would negate God's Sovereignty somehow:

(1) Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation? Why don't you expect that He would make us so like Him in the instant--so as to be His perfect living epistles in this fallen world, so as to have a very clear dividing line--between those He has chosen and those He has not? Afterall, if we are concerned about how God's sovereignty looks slighted when people have choice, then how much more impotent does the Almighty God appear when the wholly chosen don't look any different than those who won't be saved?

(2) But, if God has, in His amazing Absolutely Sovereign choice, chosen to gift us with free will to make our own choices with regards to our walk with Him, we have a much clearer picture of why the visible church looks the way it does and why even truly InSpirited believers don't agree on everything. Then, the deficiencies in our walk are not His, but ours. The deficiencies in believer's unity are not His, but ours. And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

Also I would like to add to that, that if we didn't have free will, then God would be to blame for the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Then why was the serpent, Adam and Eve punished for it?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I offered no interpretation. Just scripture showing your understanding of God and sin is incorrect.

Uh, yes you did. You offered Scripture without the context; I have explained this using the context that disproves your wrong interpretation.

You said: "God willed that Ahab would sin." ~ Dave L.

The passage does not say that in the Bible. That is YOU saying that; And not the Bible. It's your interpretation that is clearly false. I provided the context for you that shows that you are misinterpreting Scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Uh, yes you did. You said You offered Scripture without the context that I explained that disproves your wrong interpretation.

You said: "God willed that Ahab would sin." ~ Dave L.

The passage does not say that in the Bible. That is YOU saying that; And not the Bible. It's your interpretation that is clearly false. I provided the context for you that shows that you are misinterpreting Scripture.

Listening to false prophets is sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God does not desire any man to sin. God may permit (or allow) man to sin, but that is not the same thing as God willing man to sin as if it is some kind of divine decree of His perfect will and desire for their life. God is holy and He cannot agree with sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Listening to false prophets is sin.

God allowing this sin to take place does not mean God approves of it and or He desired that was the only outcome for Ahab.

 

[Dave L]

God does not desire any man to sin. God may permit (or allow) man to sin, but that is not the same thing as God willing man to sin as if it is some kind of divine decree of His perfect will and desire for their life. God is holy and He cannot agree with sin.

Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would sin if he didn't want him to sin?

 

[Dave L]

God allowing this sin to take place does not mean God approves of it.

God approved of the lying spirit seducing Ahab into battle through the false prophets.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would sin if he didn't want him to sin?

Scripture also says Pharoah hardened his heart on his own, too. So Pharoah already hardened his heart beforehand. God was merely allowing the Pharoah to continue in his own deception instead of giving him illumination to see his own wrong. The Pharoah already chose not to see. God did not just zap the Pharoah one day to have a hard heart where it was soft before.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God approved of the lying spirit seducing Ahab into battle through the false prophets.

No. God allowed it but He did not approve of it as His perfect and divine will for Ahab's life. God warned Ahab about what was going to befall him if he continued to not believe.

 

[Dave L]

Scripture also says Pharoah hardened his heart on his own, too. So Pharoah already hardened his heart beforehand. God was merely allowing the Pharoah to continue in his own deception instead of giving him illumination to see his own wrong. The Pharoah already chose not to see. God did not just zap the Pharoah one day to have a hard heart where it was soft before.

“And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.” (Exodus 4:21) (KJV 1900)

“There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.” (Joshua 11:19–20) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

No. God allowed it but He did not approve of it as His perfect and divine will for Ahab's life. God warned Ahab about what was going to befall him if he continued to not believe.

So, he still sent a lying spirit and false prophets to deceive him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No. God is not forcing anyone to sin. They have already chosen to sin already. In essence God is allowing a person's own free will to determine their own judgment. If a person continues in sin, God will allow them to be blinded to their own sin or deception because that is what they want instead of God.