If free will (choice) is only a mirage....

[Dave L]

Would you tell your children that their lives are not their own but belong to you?

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.” (1 Corinthians 6:19–20) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

A bit of a semantic dance, wouldn't you say ... since the scripture says that He gave us power ?

What about salvation, another gift ? Is it not ours ?

Are God's gifts not immutable ?

Quotes?

 

[A_Thinker]

Quotes?

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[JazzHands]

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.” (1 Corinthians 6:19–20) (KJV 1900)

To further my analogy, a father might bestow aspects of his outward appearance and his personality onto his children but as Jesus said in Genesis 2:24 - "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

I read that as, I've given you a clean template, now find a partner and create a new life. None of that suggests to me that God wanted us to run on rail tracks.

 

[Dave L]

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

That means all the good you have, comes from God and not you.

 

[Dave L]

To further my analogy, a father might bestow aspects of his outward appearance and his personality onto his children but as Jesus said in Genesis 2:24 - "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

I read that as, I've given you a clean template, now find a partner and create a new life. None of that suggests to me that God wanted us to run on rail tracks.

We would run on rail tracks straight to hell if not put on the right track.

 

[JazzHands]

We would run on rail tracks straight to hell if not put on the right track.

Again, that's a very nihilistic assumption. I don't think that's true. We may be beset by hardships we bring on ourselves but I believe that humanity is always evolving as God always intended but I don't think he needs to micromanage our every action and decision. I know when I've done something wrong because I feel guilty afterwards.

Because I don't like feeling guilty, I endeavour to improve. I'm suggesting that God only had to write an algorithm, so to speak, he doesn't have to control us directly. This way, we always improve without sacrificing what makes us interesting in the first place... our variety!

 

[Dave L]

Again, that's a very nihilistic assumption. I don't think that's true. We may be beset by hardships we bring on ourselves but I believe that humanity is always evolving as God always intended but I don't think he needs to micromanage our every action and decision. I know when I've done something wrong because I feel guilty afterwards.

Because I don't like feeling guilty, I endeavour to improve. I'm suggesting that God only had to write an algorithm, so to speak, he doesn't have to control us directly. This way, we always improve without sacrificing what makes us interesting in the first place... our variety!

This is all the result of God's grace working in you.
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (KJV 1900)

 

[JazzHands]

This is all the result of God's grace working in you.
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (KJV 1900)

That seems a lot more optimistic to me!

 

[marineimaging]

For those who believe free will is only a mirage and we don't really have it for the most important human choice, because it would negate God's Sovereignty somehow:

(1) Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation? Why don't you expect that He would make us so like Him in the instant--so as to be His perfect living epistles in this fallen world, so as to have a very clear dividing line--between those He has chosen and those He has not? Afterall, if we are concerned about how God's sovereignty looks slighted when people have choice, then how much more impotent does the Almighty God appear when the wholly chosen don't look any different than those who won't be saved?

(2) But, if God has, in His amazing Absolutely Sovereign choice, chosen to gift us with free will to make our own choices with regards to our walk with Him, we have a much clearer picture of why the visible church looks the way it does and why even truly InSpirited believers don't agree on everything. Then, the deficiencies in our walk are not His, but ours. The deficiencies in believer's unity are not His, but ours. And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

I see the biblical verbiage this way. God gave every man free will to chose just as the angels had choice to leave with Satan. Otherwise, of what value is the Lambs Book of Life? What value is judgement? What the Bible refers to in terms of pre-selection is that God already decided what the outcome would be if we choose to follow Satan. I can also read it to say that God has chosen certain people whom HE knows will be his blessed to do certain things. That Saul was the persecutor who was Christ's nemesis in the beginning only served to better emphasize the wonder and power of Christ when he converted to become Paul. In that manner the believers who died and suffered at the hands of Saul were glorified in heaven and then those on earth who were blessed to hear Paul's testimony were even more glorified on earth and in heaven.

 

[lesliedellow]

It doesn’t matter what you or I think about how God has arranged things. The only thing which matters is what God has revealed to be true through the pages of the Bible.

Rants about being made into robots, or whatever, are 100% irrelevant.

 

[fhansen]

For those who believe free will is only a mirage and we don't really have it for the most important human choice, because it would negate God's Sovereignty somehow:

(1) Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation? Why don't you expect that He would make us so like Him in the instant--so as to be His perfect living epistles in this fallen world, so as to have a very clear dividing line--between those He has chosen and those He has not? Afterall, if we are concerned about how God's sovereignty looks slighted when people have choice, then how much more impotent does the Almighty God appear when the wholly chosen don't look any different than those who won't be saved?

(2) But, if God has, in His amazing Absolutely Sovereign choice, chosen to gift us with free will to make our own choices with regards to our walk with Him, we have a much clearer picture of why the visible church looks the way it does and why even truly InSpirited believers don't agree on everything. Then, the deficiencies in our walk are not His, but ours. The deficiencies in believer's unity are not His, but ours. And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

Not only that, but if He's going to elect some otherwise worthless wretches to heaven, and the rest to hell, why not just do it to begin with-and avoid all the evil, pain, and suffering that followed from the Fall? Why not just prevent Adam from sinning in Eden if all He's going to do is override, dismiss, or predetermine man's will in the end anyway?

 

[Roidecoeur78]

Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation?

At no time is one free to do as he or she pleases, but is bound by countless physical laws from the moment of conception; such as gravity, cause and effect, and the pre-programmed instincts, which includes even the automated process of breathing. While the words "preordained" and "predestination(ed)" are used repeatedly in scripture, the phrase "free will" is present only in the vanity of human ego (but even that is created and used for God's purposes-Exodus 7:3) What it does say about a "free" anything is that the soul which has been freed from being a slave of sin is made so by being made into a slave of God, for you are either a slave of one or the other (two masters cannot be served). Such a freedom is characterized by no longer being controlled by the animal lusts or even the fear of the animal body's death, and being indwelt by the gifts of the spirit which are completely contrary to the instincts of the flesh (Gal 5:16-26). Scripture repeatedly states that the individual has no credit, personal effort, or deserving position in relation to the Creator to earn such a gift.

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Romans 6:20-22

If one does not realize or has not been shown the sovereignty of God, then that person does not know or worship the true God, but knows only an idol of his or her own device and meager human understanding.

"His dominion is an eternal dominion;
his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?” Dan 4:34-35

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Romans 9:18-20

 

[Der Alte]

Different people have different definitions of what "free will" is and is not. Several years ago when I first heard the proof text about the leopard not being able to change his spots I needed to check the context. I learned that the specific verse does not refer to all mankind but to the then king and queen of Israel, I read the entire chapter. And this citation describes my view of "free will".
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

 

[Roidecoeur78]

God's will is that you CHOOSE HIM ... which is not possible ... unless you have the power to choose. It is not a mirage ...

You will choose according to His will for you, not because you are able to author yourself or your own destiny.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" John 15:16

"Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws." Romans 8:7

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Rom 9:18-20

 

[salt-n-light]

God is not the omnipotent creator if he does not cause and control everything.

Who said He’s not? Is not a parent still in control despite the child’s decisions?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The fact that a person can violate God's will by disobeying His commands proves Calvinism is false. It is not God's will that any should sin because God Himself cannot agree with sin and or sin Himself. God is holy. God may allow us to sin of our own choice, but that does not mean it was God's plan or will for our life. God is good; And He desires us to live holy and righteous by our surrendering to His working within us (after we accept Jesus as our Savior and believe in His death and resurrection for salvation). If God is the One who is the Force Initiator (Based on no Conditions) of Salvation or in Being Lost, then it would be unloving of God to not force save everyone if that is indeed how He saves.

 

[zoidar]

Even the elect may choose to leave God. That is because we have free will and God is letting us choose. If an elect person leaves God it's certainly not God's will or doing.

 

[Dave L]

The fact that a person can violate God's will by disobeying His commands proves Calvinism is false. It is not God's will that any should sin because God Himself cannot agree with sin and or sin Himself. God is holy. God may allow us to sin of our own choice, but that does not mean it was God's plan or will for our life. God is good; And He desires us to live holy and righteous by our surrendering to His working within us (after we accept Jesus as our Savior and believe in His death and resurrection for salvation). If God is the One who is the Force Initiator (Based on no Conditions) of Salvation or in Being Lost, then it would be unloving of God to not force save everyone if that is indeed how He saves.

God willed that Ahab would sin.

“And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:20–23) (KJV 1900)

Why pray "lead us not into temptation" if God does not do so?

“And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” (Matthew 6:13) (KJV 1900)

 

[Chris V++]

' Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?' Matthew 7

'Ask, seek, knock.' These are action verbs and imply we hearers have a will to act on.