If faith is a gift from God...

[John Mullally]

Some insist that faith is the gift at Ephesians 2:8, but it’s actually salvation that is the gift, in which salvation is a gift freely received by faith rather than being obtained through one’s performance under the Mosiac Law. Romans 6:23 indicates the same: “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” The gift is clearly salvation, in terms of receiving eternal life through faith in Christ.

Romans 10:17 tells us where faith comes from, which is by hearing the gospel, so that when a person hears the gospel, they can choose to place their faith in the gospel, instead of anywhere else they had previously placed their faith.

 

[FireDragon76]

Some insist that faith is the gift at Ephesians 2:8, but it’s actually salvation that is the gift, in which salvation is a gift freely received by faith rather than being obtained through one’s performance under the Mosiac Law. Romans 6:23 indicates the same: “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” The gift is clearly salvation, in terms of receiving eternal life through faith in Christ.

Romans 10:17 tells us where faith comes from, which is by hearing the gospel, so that when a person hears the gospel, they can choose to place their faith in the gospel, instead of anywhere else they had previously placed their faith.

No serious scholar would interpret that verse in that manner.

 

[John Mullally]

Some insist that faith is the gift at Ephesians 2:8, but it’s actually salvation that is the gift, in which salvation is a gift freely received by faith rather than being obtained through one’s performance under the Mosiac Law. Romans 6:23 indicates the same: “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” The gift is clearly salvation, in terms of receiving eternal life through faith in Christ.

Romans 10:17 tells us where faith comes from, which is by hearing the gospel, so that when a person hears the gospel, they can choose to place their faith in the gospel, instead of anywhere else they had previously placed their faith.

No serious scholar would interpret that verse in that manner.

Nothing I said is controversial among non-Calvinist Evangelicals. I referenced 3 verses - which one are you referencing?

 

[Rapture Bound]

Nothing I said is controversial among non-Calvinist Evangelicals. I referenced 3 verses - which one are you referencing?

Yes indeed, as a Molinist, I would certainly agree with your statement. In post #461 you said, "Some insist that faith is the gift at Ephesians 2:8, but it’s actually salvation that is the gift". Agreed again, the Greek construction of Ephesians 2:8-9 appears to be 'cut and dried'.

William Lane Craig breaks down the Greek construction of these verses and addresses the critical question, "Is Faith A Gift From God or Something We Produce?" in the following video < Is Faith A Gift From God or Something We Produce? | Reasonable Faith > Is Faith A Gift From God or Something We Produce? | Reasonable Faith

Excerpts from Bill Craig's video :

"You might say, but didn’t we read in Ephesians 2:8-9 that faith is a gift of God, not something that we can produce. Look at Ephesians 2:8-9 again. Paul says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast.” Doesn’t this show that faith is simply God’s gift to you and not something that you do on your own? I think that is incorrect and I think demonstrably so.

Let me ask those of you who are our vigilant Logos software users to tell us what is the gender of the word for “faith” that is used in verse 8? I should mention here that in Greek, as in modern day German, every noun has a gender. There are three genders – masculine, feminine, and neuter. It is the same in Greek. Now, what is the gender of the word pistis or faith? Feminine. So it is feminine gender for pistis or faith. What is the gender of the pronoun in verse 8 “this.” Neuter! Touto is the word. It is neuter. So the antecedent of “this” is not the word “faith.” You would have to have a feminine pronoun in order to refer to “faith.” Rather, what the word “this” refers to is the whole preceding clause, namely, salvation by grace through faith. That is not your own doing. This is the gift of God. This is the way God has elected to set it up; he is going to save by his grace everyone who has faith in Christ. That is not your own doing. But it does not teach that saving faith is the gift of God. That is grammatically prohibited.

In fact, I want to say here something about the way our Reformed brethren treat the idea of faith. For many of them they think that if I exercise faith in Christ, if I respond to God’s grace by receiving it through faith, that this is somehow my meriting or winning salvation. It is something I do; I have faith and so I have somehow done some meritorious work which is excluded of course by Paul because salvation is by grace not by meritorious works. But in so saying I think they have completely misunderstood Paul. When you read Paul, he always opposes faith to works. For Paul, faith is the antithesis of works. He does not think that placing your faith in Christ is a work much less a meritorious work. Paul always contrasts faith and works. So, in receiving Christ by faith in acceding to God’s grace, you are not doing anything meritorious to save yourself. You are simply yielding, as it were, to the grace of God and allowing it to do its saving work and justifying work in your life. That is not in any sense a meritorious work."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Some insist that faith is the gift at Ephesians 2:8, but it’s actually salvation that is the gift, in which salvation is a gift freely received by faith rather than being obtained through one’s performance under the Mosiac Law. Romans 6:23 indicates the same: “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” The gift is clearly salvation, in terms of receiving eternal life through faith in Christ.

Romans 10:17 tells us where faith comes from, which is by hearing the gospel, so that when a person hears the gospel, they can choose to place their faith in the gospel, instead of anywhere else they had previously placed their faith.

You jump a rather large logical step with your last sentence there. HOW, that is, in what way, does hearing the gospel automatically translate into "place their faith"? You have no evidence that they even CAN place their faith, apart from the grace of God.

But Ephesians 2:8 says that salvation is the by grace through faith and is the gift of God. And it nails it down in verse 9 by emphasizing it is not by works. The construction of verse 8 shows, since Salvation is by Grace through Faith and is the gift of God, necessarily the Grace and the Faith are also the gift of God.

But besides the grammar of Ephesians 2, we have also the statement of Romans 8, that, being apart from the FREE act of the Holy Spirit upon the lost, the mind of flesh is unable to behave according to the mind of the Spirit. Incidentally, Romans 10:17 doesn't say that faith is 'by' the hearing of the Gospel, in the sense you seem to take it. It does imply that faith is the result of the hearing of the Gospel, but that doesn't necessarily show direct causation. But I will use your terminology below anyway.

So, if faith is the gift of God, which Ephesians 2:8 shows, and faith is by the hearing of the Gospel, no logical mental translation to "I decided to have faith" is necessary, as causal to salvation. And no, again and again, I do not imply one does not choose to believe, to trust, to repent, to obey, to do all virtues. In fact, I insist on the choice to do those things. I only claim that their cause is not self, but of the Holy Spirit's work —specifically, regeneration. Salvific faith is generated by the Spirit of God. Not by man.

 

[John Mullally]

You jump a rather large logical step with your last sentence there. HOW, that is, in what way, does hearing the gospel automatically translate into "place their faith"? You have no evidence that they even CAN place their faith, apart from the grace of God.

Similar to Romans 10:17, John 20:31 states: “But these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” Ephesians 1:13 also states: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.” So, the Bible says that faith comes from hearing the “word of Christ,” which reasonably means the “message of truth,” that is, the “gospel of your salvation.” When the gospel is heard or read, people discover something truly compelling about it. Perhaps it speaks to our conscience. The fact is that we all have faith in something. What the Bible does is convinces us to place our trust in God. The parable of Luke 8:4-15 shows that this is not difficult. The problem is when people choose the world over God, and then become hardened in self-justification to reject what they know is true, until finally their conscience becomes seared.

Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Faith is a relational way of knowing, and is the deepest way that we can connect with God. Like love and hope, faith is entirely dependent upon interpersonal relationships. Faith is the means by which the Holy Spirit makes spiritual matters intelligible, often resulting in something that we can sense, though not necessarily explain.

But Ephesians 2:8 says that salvation is the by grace through faith and is the gift of God. And it nails it down in verse 9 by emphasizing it is not by works. The construction of verse 8 shows, since Salvation is by Grace through Faith and is the gift of God, necessarily the Grace and the Faith are also the gift of God.

If all three (grace, faith, and salvation) are gifts of God, Paul would have said "they are the gifts of God" instead of "it is a gift of God". When you read verse 9 it is obvious that Salvation is the subject as the Bible talks about the fallacy of "Salvation by works (or keeping the Law)" and thus Salvation is the gift.

But besides the grammar of Ephesians 2, we have also the statement of Romans 8, that, being apart from the FREE act of the Holy Spirit upon the lost, the mind of flesh is unable to behave according to the mind of the Spirit. Incidentally, Romans 10:17 doesn't say that faith is 'by' the hearing of the Gospel, in the sense you seem to take it. It does imply that faith is the result of the hearing of the Gospel, but that doesn't necessarily show direct causation. But I will use your terminology below anyway.

God contacts men through man's spirit, not through his fleshly mind.

Proverbs 20:27 The human spirit is a the lamp of the Lord that sheds light on one’s inmost being. NIV​

Romans 10:17 doesn't say that faith is 'by' the hearing of the Gospel, in the sense you seem to take it. It does imply that faith is the result of the hearing of the Gospel, but that doesn't necessarily show direct causation. But I will use your terminology below anyway.

Just before Romans 10:17, Paul tells people how to get saved in Romans 10:6-13. What prevents people from hearing the Gospel message, receiving faith (based upon Romans 10:17), and then responding in confession- thus resulting in salvation?

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. NIV​

 

[Mark Quayle]

Similar to Romans 10:17, John 20:31 states: “But these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” Ephesians 1:13 also states: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.” So, the Bible says that faith comes from hearing the “word of Christ,” which reasonably means the “message of truth,” that is, the “gospel of your salvation.” When the gospel is heard or read, people discover something truly compelling about it. Perhaps it speaks to our conscience. The fact is that we all have faith in something. What the Bible does is convinces us to place our trust in God. The parable of Luke 8:4-15 shows that this is not difficult. The problem is when people choose the world over God, and then become hardened in self-justification to reject what they know is true, until finally their conscience becomes seared.

This doesn't even show that belief is a choice! And even I say that man chooses to believe!

Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Faith is a relational way of knowing, and is the deepest way that we can connect with God. Like love and hope, faith is entirely dependent upon interpersonal relationships. Faith is the means by which the Holy Spirit makes spiritual matters intelligible, often resulting in something that we can sense, though not necessarily explain.

This doesn't show that belief is a choice either.

If all three (grace, faith, and salvation) are gifts of God, Paul would have said "they are the gifts of God" instead of "it is a gift of God". When you read verse 9 it is obvious that Salvation is the subject as the Bible talks about the fallacy of "Salvation by works (or keeping the Law)" and thus Salvation is the gift.

Faulty argument. How can you know how he "would have" said it? Paul is careful to show logical cause here. Salvation is by Grace, through Faith. Salvation is a gift. If salvation is a gift, then so are the grace and faith by which and through which salvation is.

God contacts men through man's spirit, not through his fleshly mind.

Proverbs 20:27 The human spirit is a the lamp of the Lord that sheds light on one’s inmost being. NIV

Agreed. So....? This doesn't show that faith is generated by man, nor even that belief is a choice.

Just before Romans 10:17, Paul tells people how to get saved in Romans 10:6-13. What prevents people from hearing the Gospel message, receiving faith (based upon Romans 10:17), and then responding in confession- thus resulting in salvation?

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. NIV

Where is your text proving "responding in confession- thus resulting in salvation." Romans 10:10 doesn't do it. It only says confession is made unto salvation. That, even apart from the context and the whole counsel of God's Word, immediately does not mean that confession results in salvation, but that it is in keeping with salvation.

You have, once again, failed to show that salvific faith is not the gift of God, generated by the Holy Spirit.

You have a LONG row to hoe. Even if you could prove to me grammatically or otherwise, that confession does cause salvation, you still have not thus shown that it is by the will / choice of man and not by the work of God. You want to make Grace a cooperative effort, where your will improves on what God has done. You deny pure Grace.

According to Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide in Sola Christus by Sola Gratia, to Soli Deo Gloria. Nothing man thinks he does toward Salvation effects anything. All glory goes to God.

 

[John Mullally]

This doesn't even show that belief is a choice! And even I say that man chooses to believe!

Men choose what they believe as they choose what they listen to - as faith comes from hearing (Acts 10:17).

Faulty argument. How can you know how he "would have" said it?

I explained that the way Ephesians 2:8 is written, it does not support making grace, faith, and salvation all gifts of God. To illustrate, I gave one possible way that Ephesians 2:8 could be rewritten to support making all 3 gifts - obviously there are other means.

Paul is careful to show logical cause here. Salvation is by Grace, through Faith. Salvation is a gift. If salvation is a gift, then so are the grace and faith by which and through which salvation is.

Grace is unmerited favor. And that "unmerited favor" is expressed by saving those with faith in Him. Faith does not merit - works (i.e. keeping the law) does, but no one is saved by works (verse 9).

Where is your text proving "responding in confession- thus resulting in salvation." Romans 10:10 doesn't do it. It only says confession is made unto salvation. That, even apart from the context and the whole counsel of God's Word, immediately does not mean that confession results in salvation, but that it is in keeping with salvation.

Salvation results from believing in your heart + confession. Faith is expressed as an action - it is going to include confession.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

You have, once again, failed to show that salvific faith is not the gift of God, generated by the Holy Spirit.

If it helps, you can think of it as God chooses to give faith to those who do Acts 10:17.

Nothing man thinks he does toward Salvation effects anything. All glory goes to God.

Peter's message in Acts 2 indicates that man's will is involved as he first guilts the crowd and then promises remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit (this is arguably salvation) to those who repent and are baptized.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

 

[Mark Quayle]

If it helps, you can think of it as God chooses to give faith to those who do Acts 10:17.

Therefore, merits. You just can't get away from self-determination, can you. The rest of your post is evidence of your notion that somehow, as you put it, "involved", means more than just involved. That we are involved is of no relevance to how salvation is caused. WE have no part in the causation. You are just repeating yourself, and in response, I am too. Enough.

 

[Hammster]

Men choose what they believe as they choose what they listen to - as faith comes from hearing (Acts 10:17).

I can prove that’s not true. But you won’t like it.

 

[John Mullally]

Therefore, merits. You just can't get away from self-determination, can you. The rest of your post is evidence of your notion that somehow, as you put it, "involved", means more than just involved. That we are involved is of no relevance to how salvation is caused. WE have no part in the causation. You are just repeating yourself, and in response, I am too. Enough.

You speak about "causation" as if it cancels Biblcal promises. We should take God at His word: claim the benefits from acting on His promises, heed warnings, and avoid presumption.

You don't understand what merit means. Our surrender to God, by listening to his word, responding in faith, and humbly confessing our sins and admitting our guilt before Him, does not merit or earn the forgiveness of sins. That would be like saying that a bank robber who turns themselves in to the police should automatically be pardoned, simply because they turned themselves in. Although it might slightly lesson their punishment, they’re still going to prison. So, when a sinner turns themselves into God and confesses their sins before Him, they are no less guilty, simply by admitting their guilt. It is completely the grace of God to choose to be merciful to those who admit their sins before Him.

 

[John Mullally]

I can prove that’s not true. But you won’t like it.

What's going on?

 

[Hammster]

What's going on?

What’s going on is that your premise of us being able to choose what we believe is false. I can prove it very simply. But as soon as I give you my proposition, you’ll most likely balk at it. There’s a chance you’ll see my point and admit openly that you were wrong, but my history with synergists suggests that it won’t happen.

 

[John Mullally]

What’s going on is that your premise of us being able to choose what we believe is false. I can prove it very simply. But as soon as I give you my proposition, you’ll most likely balk at it. There’s a chance you’ll see my point and admit openly that you were wrong, but my history with synergists suggests that it won’t happen.

Based upon what Calvin states, God's will can be determined by everything that happens, which is also what Islam teaches. Islam and Calvinism: An Uncomfortable Comparison – Grace Evangelical Society

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

Even though scripture says that God is love (1 John 4:8), tthat God is the Savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10), and that Gpd desires all people be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), Calvin has God predestinating many to hell from before birth and to make matters worse, he says that God does it to receive glory.

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

 

[Hammster]

Based upon what Calvin states, God's will can be determined by everything that happens, which is also what Islam teaches. Islam and Calvinism: An Uncomfortable Comparison – Grace Evangelical Society

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

Even though scripture says that God is love (1 John 4:8), tthat God is the Savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10), and that Gpd desires all people be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), Calvin has God predestinating many to hell from before birth and to make matters worse, he says that God does it to receive glory.

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

You didn’t even address my post. Hmmm

 

[John Mullally]

I can prove that’s not true. But you won’t like it.

What’s going on is that your premise of us being able to choose what we believe is false. I can prove it very simply. But as soon as I give you my proposition, you’ll most likely balk at it. There’s a chance you’ll see my point and admit openly that you were wrong, but my history with synergists suggests that it won’t happen.

You didn’t even address my post. Hmmm

Hmm. You have posed no question and you haven't said anything yet.

 

[Hammster]

Hmm. You have posed no question and you haven't said anything yet.

You complain when I post questions. Now you’re complaining when I don’t.

How about I present a challenge? Oh wait, I did.

 

[Hammster]

Well, that was fun.

 

[FredVB]

We have choices to make, as we must. Even with God enabling, we are told to choose. God who is just cannot judge justly without our choosing, which we do.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We have choices to make, as we must. Even with God enabling, we are told to choose. God who is just cannot judge justly without our choosing, which we do.

It's true that we do, but I'm not quite with you on the question of him not justly judging without our choosing. He owns us and can justly do as he chooses with us. He has that right.

But you may be right, in that, if we had no choice, then it would be a mistake to refer to judgement as to "right" and "wrong". It would be more like appropriate vs mistake, or something. On the other hand, "morality" is a direct reference to 'lining up with God', not to 'right and wrong' in themselves, except as they too are a reference to 'lining up with God'. Aaaargh! The words turn on themselves when you try to go outside the way things actually are.