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If faith is a gift from God...

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by janxharris, Oct 15, 2013.

  1. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    This is not true Boxer.

    25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
    26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
    27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
    28Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
     
  2. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    First, according to Mark's account she was a Greek (Hellenist). A Hellenist in the new testament is ALWAYS a Greek speaking Jew. So she was an Israelite. The Hellenists were regarded as "dogs" by the "orthodox" Jews. Matthew's account uses the term "Canaanite" in the derogatory sense. She was not a physical Canaanite.
    So Jesus was testing her faith by calling her a "dog" because the Jews regarded her as such. See Matthew's Henry's commentary. But her faith did not let the stereotypes get in her way. She said that even dogs get the crumbs.
    Second, Mark's account says that Jesus CAME to her house. This proves that she was one of the lost sheep of the house of Israel for Jesus CAME only to them.
    Third, she addressed Jesus by the titles "Lord" and "son of David." She was an Israelite.
    1. She was a Hellenist (Greek speaking Jew).
    2. Jesus CAME to her house. Jesus CAME only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
    3. She addressed Jesus by the titles "Lord" and "son of David." She was an Israelite.
     
  3. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    I am confident that she was not one of the lost sheep of Israel. Unlike the Pharisees, Jesus was not about making a show of rules and regulations. He certainly came for Israel first, but was not so pedantic that he would ignore the pleadings of anyone that came to him. The healing of the man by the pool of Bethsaida is another example, for he tells the man to pick up his mat which the Jews did not permit on the sabbath.

    Not sure why it is so important for you to establish purity over this matter. I have looked at a few commentaries and they all say the same.
     
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 "Excuse me... what does God need with a starship?" Supporter

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    Where do you get this information from? There are many non-Jews mentioned in the New Testament, and nowhere does it mention the Canaanite woman was Jewish. Canaanite implies she wasn't Jewish and was a pagan.

    Most Jews in Palestine spoke Aramaic or Greek. None spoke Hebrew, it was an otherwise dead language by the time of Jesus. In fact most Jews read their scriptures in Aramaic or Greek, not Hebrew. Jesus may not even have known any Hebrew.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  5. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 "Excuse me... what does God need with a starship?" Supporter

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    Where do you get this information from? There are many non-Jews mentioned in the New Testament, and nowhere does it mention the Canaanite woman was Jewish. Canaanite implies she was a Phoenician and likely pagan.

    Most Jews in Palestine spoke Aramaic or Greek. None spoke Hebrew, it was a religious and otherwise dead language by the time of Jesus. In fact most Jews read their scriptures in Aramaic or Greek, not Hebrew. Jesus may not even have known any Hebrew.

    Jesus uses the Canaanite woman as an object lesson to his disciples and to us about faith- even though the woman doesn't strictly deserve Jesus help, since he came first to the Jews, he helps her anyways due to her faith. Faith trumps legalism, so Jesus heals her son.

    Compare this with other stories, such as the Parable of the Dishonest Judge or the healing of the Centurion and his slave. In all cases God rewards persistence and faith more than what people are strictly owed.

    The whole point of the Messiah is the redemption of the world where Israel, the people, had failed. The Jews were supposed to be a blessing to the nations, to be an example of justice, but they failed, instead the Torah becomes a source of pride and arrogance. The Old Testament Prophets look forward to a future utopia where death is defeated and the nations gather to worship at "the mountain of the Lord". So Jesus fulfills the promise, the spriit of Torah himself as Israel's representative- he heals the sick, correctly expounds the spirit of Torah, and shows the inclusive plan of God for the whole world by looking more at faith than religion. But he also has to pay for Israel's sins to atone for them, and a new covenant can be made with Israel. Gentiles are grafted into Israel in fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecies, and that is what the Church is- the Israel of God.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  6. FaithInHisName

    FaithInHisName Newbie

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    Saving faith is not a gift from God. There isn't a clear passage in the Scripture that teaches that "believing faith" is a gift. Eph. 2:8-9 is a forced view an unclear verse to try an prove that faith is a gift. If we consider the clear passages there is none.

    There are three gifts related to salvation, justification Romans 3:24, righteousness Romans 5:17 and eternal life Romans 6:23.

    These are the only three words associated with salvation that are actually called a "gift" specifically. Faith is contrasted with works. Believing faith while it is communicated as something we do, the nature of language, it is not a work. However, man is required to believe to be saved. This not only seems reasonable it is the order of many verses that a person must first believe, but this in a little off subject, yet related because the two camps, one believing that a person is regenerated then some how the same person received a gift of faith so that this will make that person able to believe. The other view follows the wording in the Bible, a person must believe and then that person is saved.

    In that there are no clear verses that deal with saving faith that teach it is a gift it is clear then that it is not a gift but a requirement of man. Paul told the jailer that he had to believe to be saved. It indicates in the wording that it was man's responsibility to believe, no indication that it came from God. Actually, outside the forced view that Eph 2:8 and 9 teaches that faith is a gift, which it does not, that is the only verse associated with saving faith that relates to the topic and it too is not teaching faith is a gift.
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Very well said!

    Additionally, if one thinks of a gift delivered in a "gift bag", then the reformed believe that the gift bag contains not only eternal life (Rom 6:23), but also "saving faith" as well. So, for them, because of their unsubstantiated belief that God chooses who will believe and elects them, they receive "saving faith" when they receive eternal life. Basically, 2 gifts in the one gift bag.
     
  8. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 "Excuse me... what does God need with a starship?" Supporter

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    Faith-as-gift is not only the Reformed view, it was also the view of Arminius' and his followers, and also Roman Catholicism. Due to Adam's fall, faith is not something that a human being has under their natural power without God's grace. This was settled at the Second Council of Orange in 529, which settled the controversy regarding Pelagianism. Faith is a gift because we can only have faith as the result of God's grace.
     
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Maybe "settled" in 529 AD, but there is no Scriptural support for the view.
     
  10. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    First, Jesus did NOT say that He came for Israel first. He said that He was sent not "EXCEPT to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." You are making Jesus out to be a disobedient servant. Why?

    Second, He did not ignore her pleadings. Are you saying that her pleadings meant that she was a non-Israelite? He was not anointed to help non-Israelites. :confused:

    Third, Mark says that He came to her house. You must remember that this was during His Galilean ministry. According to Peter God anointed Jesus to go to the "land of the Jews" when in Galilee (Acts 10:38-39). An example of this would be an ambassador from China coming to America and going to its "Chinatowns." In going to the Chinatowns he is going only to where His own people live.

    So Jesus went only to where Jews lived. Furthermore, you previously said that Jesus was indeed sent to Israel but He helped Gentiles when the opportunity presented itself. But Jesus came to the woman's house. Therefore, He was SENT to her which means she was an Israelite.

    This is not an example. It is YOUR assumption.

    Whether or not Jesus was an obedient servant is very important. You can't understand this? :confused:

    You have re-defined Christ's earthly ministry.
     
  11. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    Do you deny that there were pagan Jews? Paul's epistles to the Corinthians were written to Jews and he told them that they were once "pagans" (1 Corinthians 12:2 ESV).

    It's funny you should say this because one of the reasons the Hellenist Jews were despised by Christ's enemies is because they did not speak the "holy" Hebrew language.

    I would agree that Jesus made use of the situation to teach His disciples about faith. But it's not a matter of faith versus legalism. It is a matter of to whom Jesus was anointed to help.

    You say that He was sent to Jews first. You also have revised Jesus' commission. He did NOT say that He was sent to them first. He said that He was sent not "EXCEPT to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
    He came to the woman's house. Therefore, He was SENT to her. And if SENT to her she as a lost Israelite.

    You are confusing the ministry of Jesus with the mission of Paul. Gentiles were not included in any of Israel's blessings UNTIL Paul.
     
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    No one is trying to make Jesus to be a disobedient servant. Let's look at what Scripture says.

    In Matt 10:6 and Mark 7:26 we have the encounter with a woman who's daughter was demon possessed. In both places, Jesus tells her it wasn't right to take the "children's" crumbs and toss them to the "dogs".

    So, who is He referring to as "children" and who are the "dogs"? Well, that's easy. The Jews referred to Gentiles as dogs, and had nothing to do with them.

    In Matt 10, the woman is identified as a "Canaanite woman". Clearly not from Israel. In Mark 7, she is identified as a Greek, born in Syria Phoenicia, clearly not from Israel.

    And Jesus' comment to her clearly indicated that He didn't consider her a Jew either.

    Now, let's consider the words of Simeon, when he saw the baby Jesus:
    Luke 2:32
    A Light of revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel.”

    You can argue all you want, but Simeon's words refute you.

    In Luke 7:1-10, Jesus healed a servant of a Centurion. Are you really going to argue that there were Jewish Centurions among the Jews? I'd love to see some evidence for that. Centurions were identified with Rome.

    In John 4, the woman from Samaria notes He was a Jew and she a Samaritan, clearly not identifying herself as Jewish. She was surprised that He was talking to her, since Jews didn't associate with non-Jews. (they were arrogant about their election)

    Then, in Jn 10, Jesus said He would lay down His life for THE sheep. Note that He did not say "for the lost sheep of Israel".
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FD asked you for evidence of your claims, yet you respond with just this???

    And were do you get the idea that the Corinthian church was Jews? Paul's ministry was specfically to the Gentiles of which the Corinthian church was made up of almost totally. There might have been a few Jews among them, but not many. Paul went to the Gentiles.

    Acts 18:6-8 -
    6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

    In v.6 Paul says he was going to the Gentiles, and in v.7-8 we see Paul preaching to Corinthians. They were Greeks, not Jews.
     
  14. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 "Excuse me... what does God need with a starship?" Supporter

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    Hebrew was not a spoken language in 1st century Palestine anymore than Latin is a spoken language today.
     
  15. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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  16. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    I have to take issue here. Romans 11 delineates Israel and the Gentiles.
     
  17. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    Israel, physical, spiritual, and the Gentiles or?

    Just ol' old curiousity Jack that didn't kill the poor ol' cat, ie, I like cats
     
  18. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 "Excuse me... what does God need with a starship?" Supporter

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    The author randomly quotes sources, some of which are questionable, without understanding the broader history of the Ancient Near East.

    A rebuttal to the idea that Jesus spoke Hebrew as a first language:

    Which Language Did Jesus Speak

    Dead languages used only for religious purposes are common throughout the world. Persians had Avestan, Hindus have Sanskrit, and Roman Catholics have Latin... and Jews had Hebrew. Te fact modern Israelis speak Hebrews has more to do with Zionist romanticism than history. .
     
  19. FaithInHisName

    FaithInHisName Newbie

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    I doubt that anyone would suggest that if it were not for God's grace faith is void for even Paul expressed this. The words "believing faith" express what is required of God's word to receive regeneration, a synergistic relationship, and this too is clearly stated by Jesus in Luke gospel, chapter 7 and verse 50, and by Paul and Silas in Acts chapter 16 and verses 29-31.

    God's grace provides the object of trust "faith" in Him. This was the point Paul was making in 1 Corinthians 15:13-15 English Standard Version (ESV) 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.

    Paul made no distinction between a dead faith and a live faith; in other words the same faith that was necessary to be regenerated was the same faith that if the "GRACE" was not, was said to be in vain. Using the word "Grace" as meaning the provision of God in the Gospel as presented in Romans 10 and all passages that express the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

    Paul was clear to point out that (1) justification was a gift; (2) righteousness was a gift and that (3) eternal life was a gift, but nowhere is "believing faith" state as such. It is for all generations to rethink the past, the words and actions of councils and positions, there should never be a, “rubber stamp” of the past but a re-thinking and evaluation of all things said in light of one’s diligent study. It seems that the passions of those times were captive to the setting and have sometimes missed the actual teaching of Scripture. The Jews of Jesus day fell prey to a form of confidence that was exposed by Jesus' teaching as we all well know. I would think that if Paul by the Holy Spirit of God wanted us to understand "believing faith" as a Grace Gift, he would have clearly stated it, but the opposite is the clear teaching in the Book of Romans and the presence of any clear and relatively suggested doctrine is absent in any of his other letters, neither in the others writings of the N. T.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
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