If faith is a gift from God...

[OzSpen]

I ask for bread and you give me a stone.

I find this to be an abominable statement to FreeGrace2. Why must you engage in this king of flaming statement and put down?

 

[OzSpen]

Come on! You know that you were brought up to think that the term "kosmos" means every human being and that you impose that definition upon the bible.

I'm waiting for you to provide me with a link to a scholar who has investigated every use of kosmos in the Greek NT to demonstrate that it NEVER means every person in the world.

I'm waiting!

 

[Jack Terrence]

You are in error about Jesus NEVER healing a Gentile. The Scriptures refute your false statement:



AND


Those verses refute your false theological statement.


Oz

The centurion and the woman were Israelites. The woman was an Israelite of the Diaspora. They were also called "Gentiles."

You do not understand the implications of your false theology. If Jesus went to Gentiles when He was not sent to them, then He was disobedient to God. How could He be a Savior to any man if He was disobedient to God?

 

[janxharris]

Nope.! The expression "all the people of the congregation" refers to the assembly of Israel (19:2).

Then you don't need to make atonement for aliens. Atonement was for breaking the ceremonial law. Aliens were not under the ceremonial law.

And yet they were asked, just like the Israelites, to deny themselves and rest. They were told to do this becauseon this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I'm waiting for you to provide me with a link to a scholar who has investigated every use of kosmos in the Greek NT to demonstrate that it NEVER means every person in the world.

And I have already answered that. I said that I abide the Sola Scriptura principle.

 

[OzSpen]

You did NOT answer why Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. How could He have been light to every human being if He was not sent to every human being?

Therefore, "all men" in John 1 refers to Israel. Why are you so commited to ignoring the line upon line principle? Verse 11 says that He came "UNTO HIS OWN."

I will send you a bottle of Bic's White Out so you can white out verse 11 from your bible.

You love to quote that Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Now let's look at the context of what happened after he said that:

Matthew 15:21-28

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman

21 And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.” 23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly (ESV).

He healed a Canaanite woman's daughter - a Canaanite (a non-Jew) - thus demonstrating that Jesus DID NOT come only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He came also for the Gentiles - a Canaanite woman and her daughter. Isn't that amazing that you overlook exactly what Jesus did in the context of making the statement that you love to repeat over and over?

Jesus DID NOT come only for the people of the house of Israel. This story from Matthew 15 demonstrates that he also came for the Gentiles and he demonstrated it right there in front of the Jews by healing a Canaanite woman's daughter.

And what did Jesus say to this Gentile woman who numbered herself among the 'dogs'. Jesus said: 'O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire'.

Amazing, isn't it? That Jesus could praise the faith of a 'dog' of a Gentile woman for her faith in Jesus.

Oz

 

[janxharris]

The centurion and the woman were Israelites. The woman was an Israelite of the Diaspora. They were also called "Gentiles."

You do not understand the implications of your false theology. If Jesus went to Gentiles when He was not sent to them, then He was disobedient to God. How could He be a Savior to any man if He was disobedient to God?

Mark 7:26
The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

So Gentiles does not mean non-Israelites?

Jesus came to the Jews, but it didn't prevent him from healing Gentiles if the occasion arose. His focus was on Israel and then, through them, all people.

 

[Jack Terrence]

And yet they were asked, just like the Israelites, to deny themselves and rest. They were told to do this becauseon this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you.

They would have to have been circumcised first. An uncircumcised man had no part in Israel, even if he was an Israelite. And don't say that Lev 16 doesn't say that. It doesn't have to say it every time because it was the law.

I am getting annoyed with your constant evasion of verse 19. It EXPLICITLY says that the sins of the CHILDREN of Israel were put on the head of the goat.

You might be able to stretch the word "congregation" include aliens. But you cannot do that with the expression "CHILDREN of Israel.

 

[janxharris]

You love to quote that Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Now let's look at the context of what happened after he said that:
He healed a Canaanite woman's daughter - a Canaanite (a non-Jew) - thus demonstrating that Jesus DID NOT come only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He came also for the Gentiles - a Canaanite woman and her daughter. Isn't that amazing that you overlook exactly what Jesus did in the context of making the statement that you love to repeat over and over?

Jesus DID NOT come only for the people of the house of Israel. This story from Matthew 15 demonstrates that he also came for the Gentiles and he demonstrated it right there in front of the Jews by healing a Canaanite woman's daughter.

And what did Jesus say to this Gentile woman who numbered herself among the 'dogs'. Jesus said: 'O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire'.

Amazing, isn't it? That Jesus could praise the faith of a 'dog' of a Gentile woman for her faith in Jesus.

Oz

Jesus' focus was on Israel, but, obviously, it was extend to all men.

What would you say Jesus meant by the following?

Matthew 23:39
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

 

[OzSpen]

And I have already answered that. I said that I abide the Sola Scriptura principle.

I also abide by the Sola Scriptura principle, but my hermeneutics are different from yours.

Please demonstrate to me that there is at least one study that has examined every use of kosmos in the NT and it demonstrates that kosmos is NEVER used to describe all of the people in the world. Please provide me with a link to a study that demonstrates this.

Or are you saying that you have been giving us hot air on this topic and that there is NOT STUDY that demonstrates that kosmos does not refer to all of the people in the world in ANY PLACE in the NT?

I'm waiting for your demonstration of a study that proves this.

Otherwise, it's based on your assertion, which is based on your presuppositions.

Please cough up with a study that demonstrates that kosmos in the NT never ever refers to all the people in the world.

Oz

 

[Hammster]

Yours is a non-argument. It provides no answers to the issues raised. It seems as though you love being contrary.

I guess you don't realize it, then.

 

[janxharris]

They would have to have been circumcised first. An uncircumcised man had no part in Israel, even if he was an Israelite. And don't say that Lev 16 doesn't say that. It doesn't have to say it every time because it was the law.

Are you saying that only foreigners that were circumcised were told to rest and deny themselves?

I am getting annoyed with your constant evasion of verse 19. It EXPLICITLY says that the sins of the CHILDREN of Israel were put on the head of the goat.

Yes, it does say that.

You might be able to stretch the word "congregation" include aliens. But you cannot do that with the expression "CHILDREN of Israel.[/QUOTE]

It's not a stretch.

 

[Hammster]

You engage in the deconstruction of words as good as any postmodern deconstructionist I have read with your constantly making world = part of the world; world does not mean everyone; everyone = some; all = many; you're not taking the context into consideration, etc.

There is no way in the world that replacing Calvinist with Arminian would make the same argument because you are the one deconstructing language to make it fit your presuppositions. See the examples I have just given.

I guess you missed my point.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Mark 7:26
The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

Hellenist Jews were called "Greeks" and also "Gentiles."

So Gentiles does not mean non-Israelites?

There were TWO classes of Gentiles in new Testament times. There were ethnic born Gentiles (non-Israelites). And there were Israelites of the Diaspora. They were also called "Gentiles."

Jesus came to the Jews, but it didn't prevent him from healing Gentiles if the occasion arose. His focus was on Israel and then, through them, all people.

Prove it! If Hellenist Jews were called "Greeks," and Gentiles," and if Jews of the Diaspora were called "Gentiles," then how do you know that the "Gentiles" Jesus healed were ethnic Gentiles?

Paul told the Gentiles at Ephesus that Christ "CAME and preached to YOU" (Ephesians 3:17). By your own admission these would NOT have been ethnic Gentiles for you said that Christ "CAME to the Jews."

 

[janxharris]

Hellenist Jews were called "Greeks" and also "Gentiles."

Would you provide a source please?

There were TWO classes of Gentiles in new Testament times. There were ethnic born Gentiles (non-Israelites). And there were Israelites of the Diaspora. They were also called "Gentiles."

How do you know that Israelites of the Diaspora were also called Gentiles?

Prove it! If Hellenist Jews were called "Greeks," and Gentiles," and if Jews of the Diaspora were called "Gentiles," then how do you know that the "Gentiles" Jesus healed were ethnic Gentiles?

I'll let you provide me evidence on the definition of 'Gentile' first.

Paul told the Gentiles at Ephesus that Christ "CAME and preached to YOU" (Ephesians 3:17). By your own admission these would NOT have been ethnic Gentiles for you said that Christ "CAME to the Jews."

Ephesians 3:17 does not say that so I wont respond.

so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Father had not revealed to Jesus that the Gentiles would later be included.

I'm quite sure that Jesus was omniscient, as was His Father. Your statement is bewildering.

How could Jesus have understood the term "kosmos" to include the Gentiles when God had not showed Him that? He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It has been noted that you totally ignored this.

I've ignored nothing. Again, Jesus was omniscient and didn't need to be "showed" anything, as you suggest here.

And Jesus' comment regarding what Moses did with a bronze serpent and equated that with what He was going to do demonstrates quite clearly that He was going to die for every sinner, just as the serpent was for every one who had been bitten.

Here's the comparison:
The scope of the serpent was for everyone bitten. The cure was for those who looked.

The scope of Christ's death was for every sinner. Salvation is for those who believe.

Can you refute these statements?

Tell us why Jesus NEVER preached to a Gentile nor healed a Gentile. I will tell you why. Because God had sent Him not to the Gentiles, but only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then unless you are Jewish, He didn't come for you either. That isn't believable.

Your claim about who Jesus never preached to or healed is also bewildering. How do you know everything He did and didn't do? Maybe the Bible doesn't specficially mention it, but to claim what you do not know isn't helpful.

Seems you ignored where Jesus preached to not only a Samaritan woman, but her entire village, and they believed in Him and acknowledged Him as Savior of the world. Do you consider Samaritans Jews? The Jews sure didn't. They treated them as they did Gentiles.

Therefore, the term "kosmos" to Him was Israel. The word was not expanded to include Gentiles until Paul.

So Jesus didn't even know His own gospel message????????

Revelation was progressive sir. So John 3:16 cannot be used as a "proof text" for the universal atonement doctrine because it referred to Israel only at the time Jesus used it.

This is linear logic.

Logic, it isn't. Nor Biblical.

And thanks for ignoring all those verses that tell us who He came to seek and save.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I ask for bread and you give me a stone.

I'm sorry if that's how you view hammster's posts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You hit the theological nail on the head. Both 1 John 2:2 and 1 Tim 4:10 make it very clear two groups of people are being spoken of for whom Christ's unlimited atonement is provided:

(1) In 1 John 2:2, they are (a) 'our sins' (sins of those who are now believers), and (b) 'and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world' - the rest of humanity, besides the believers.

(2) In 1Tim 4:10, they are (a) 'Savior of all people', and (b) 'especially of those who believe' - Christians.

Both verses put it in black and white: Christ provides salvation/propitiation for believers and the whole of the world. It would be illogical to make both verses say that Christ provides salvation/propitiation for believers AND believers.

I hope you realise that this kind of thing happens when one is promoting a position that conflicts with Scripture.

Oz

Oh, yes, quite aware!

 

[TannarDarr]

Show it from the context and not from the scholars. We abide by Sola Scriptura here.

If you abide my sola scriptura, then you can not abide by Sola scriptura, because Paul is the one that started tradition, and it was a command, not a suggestion. SOOOOoooooooooo

this is awkward.....

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus' focus was on Israel, but, obviously, it was extend to all men.

What would you say Jesus meant by the following?

Matthew 23:39
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

About 45 mins ago, I completed a lengthy response to this verse for you but when I uploaded, it told me that the site was busy and to try again. I've pressed the link 9-10 times in the last 45 mins but it would not connect.

I've now lost what I wrote to you. I don't have the time right now to give that detailed response again. I'll try to night. It's 9.06am Monday as I write.

Oz