If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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TheBibleIsTruth

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All ages end but is replaced with a new age. another age with out end. But punishment of the loss ends when God decides it ends. God has many ages to save the loss.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

The Greek noun kolasis is rendered punishment in Matthew 25:46. This is the meaning at the time Jesus used the word, when it no longer only meant "correction" I will confess that this is the saddest doctrine in the Bible. And I really wish it were not true. But it is and I fully accept that whatever it is that it will be completely Just as God is fully Righteous in all he does
 
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Oldmantook

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So you are saying that the Righteous will not be with the Lord for ever in heaven?
Why do you believe the the Righteous will be with the Lord forever in heaven? The Righteous will dwell with the Lord in the New Jerusalem on the earth.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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If I understand your question, Gordon, I agree with you. Calvinists try to convince people to believe their point of view, as do others. I gloss over such posts, too. We all have the right to state what we think, including Universal Salvationists, but the work of convincing is by the Holy Spirit. Endless points and arguments do nothing unless the Spirit quickens those points in the heart. We are all called to speak the truth in love and to give an account for our faith when asked. But that does not mean we are to try forcing our point of view on others.

The fact remains that the teaching of universal salvation is a very dangerous lie from the devil and must be condemned strongly for the the soul destroying and hell sending heresy that it is
 
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Oldmantook

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The Righteous will have eternal life and the unrighteous eternal punishment. Both "eternals" are the same in duration
The Greek word for "eternal" in Matt 25:46 is aiōnion which refers to an age of time - not eternity. The age/duration referred to is the Millennium; 1,000 year period when Jesus rules on the earth upon his 2nd Coming. Those people who did good works to the brethren who are still alive at the Second Coming are the sheep who populate the earth during the Millennium. They have Millennial-age life with Jesus on the earth. Those people that ignored/mistreated the brethren are the goats who are consigned to the lake of fire for 1,000 years. They have Millennial-age punishment in the lake of fire.
 
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AlexDTX

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Carnal man is dead. Dead spiritually and as a carnal man sees all things spiritual as foolishness and salvation is very spiritual. That is why the word draw is used. Carnal man has no spiritual desire for when Adam died we all died to the realm of God. That is why this verse is so important. I am a Christian Universalist not a Calvinist. Calvin believed in many things I do not like eternal punishment.


Eph 2:1-8 gives a clear view in context how the salvation process is accomplished in carnal man. God’s Spirit has to quicken us out of our dead spiritual state. Being dead spiritually is so easy to understand. Have you ever see some one dead? Well a spiritual man is dead to hearing seeing, receiving God and all the man made doctrine of freewill or choice cannot and will not waken carnal man out of that dead spiritual state.


"QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! making it active, operative, energizing and effective, notice the context of Ephesians which shows us step by step how the salvation process works.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

Got is not calling the whole world now.

You are welcome to your opinion. I still disagree.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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The Greek noun kolasis is rendered punishment in Matthew 25:46. This is the meaning at the time Jesus used the word, when it no longer only meant "correction" I will confess that this is the saddest doctrine in the Bible. And I really wish it were not true. But it is and I fully accept that whatever it is that it will be completely Just as God is fully Righteous in all he does
If you hand in there you will begin to see it is not only the sadist doctrine out there but scriptural speaking it is not there. There is no justice in torturing billions of people for ever and ever and ever with no mercy.

The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished... -2 Peter 2:9-
Punishment=Kolasis: Correction, Punishment, Penalty.
Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo
Kolazo:

1. To lop or prune, as trees and wings.

2. To curb, check, restrain.

3. To chastise. To correct. Punishment .

4. To cause to be punished.

Correction=

Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.

Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve or reform the person punished.

Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.

Treatment of a specific defect.

The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.

A rebuke for making a mistake.

The act of punishing.

Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something or the indicating of errors in something.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.

Amendation.

Rectification.

Rectification=

To set right. To correct.

To purify.

To correct by removing errors.

To adjust.

A quantity applied by way of correcting.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Amendation.

To correct something or make something right.

The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.

To correct by calculation or adjustment.

To adjust.

To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.

The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.

"Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

Fitted= Katartizo=

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair.

To complete/ put in order/ to arrange/ to adjust.

To make one what he aught to be.
 
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AlexDTX

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The fact remains that the teaching of universal salvation is a very dangerous lie from the devil and must be condemned strongly for the the soul destroying and hell sending heresy that it is
I agree with you, Truth. Even though they deny it, I see the roots of Calvinism in the teaching, which I also believe to be a demonic doctrine. We are too speak the Truth as led by the Holy Spirit. As Paul Simon wrote in his song, The Boxer: A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. Only God knows what needs to be said for a man to know the Truth, hence our need to be led by the Spirit.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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Why do you believe the the Righteous will be with the Lord forever in heaven? The Righteous will dwell with the Lord in the New Jerusalem on the earth.
Yes on earth but where does God dwell? Everywhere the most important place is with in us. Much like the Garden of Eden where there will be no more death and sin. That means even roses will have no need for thorns
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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The fact remains that the teaching of universal salvation is a very dangerous lie from the devil and must be condemned strongly for the the soul destroying and hell sending heresy that it is
Show me where in the Bible Universal salvation is a heresy. Its not there. But you know what is there? The heresy of false teachers and prophets who damn people.
 
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AlexDTX

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@Soar Like and Eagle
I never sense the Holy Spirit in what US people say. Only endless rationale and proof texting in an effort to bury people in their reasons. No one wants the world to perish, but all people choose their directions and the vast majority are selfish and self centered, thus evil. Jesus is God in the flesh, yet he wept over Jerusalem because they rejected him. You say he has an irresistable will, yet he could not save the majority.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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Show me where in the Bible Universal salvation is a heresy. Its not there. But you know what is there? The heresy of false teachers and prophets who damn people.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Damn…. Strong's NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Who is this verse addressing???


This is your fundamental belief that Jesus is going to damn billions. That’s heresy according to God’s Word which you claim to believe in. They bring damnations , destruction, perish etc.


Looks like Rome missed this verse when they changed the meaning of God’s Word and inserted words like hell and eternal. I love the word easter. Talk about pagan.

Is it the Christian Universalist who believes God’s Word is Spirit and life and that ultimately all who will be saved. NO it is the heretic who condemns, damn billions and billions of God’s people who he never called and for that reason have NO… freewill to save themselves.


Now it’s your turn to show me Christian Universalism is heresy. Please God’s Word opinions are not excepted.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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The Greek word for "eternal" in Matt 25:46 is aiōnion which refers to an age of time - not eternity. The age/duration referred to is the Millennium; 1,000 year period when Jesus rules on the earth upon his 2nd Coming. Those people who did good works to the brethren who are still alive at the Second Coming are the sheep who populate the earth during the Millennium. They have Millennial-age life with Jesus on the earth. Those people that ignored/mistreated the brethren are the goats who are consigned to the lake of fire for 1,000 years. They have Millennial-age punishment in the lake of fire.
A goat is a clean animal under the law of Moses. Jesus know this do you? So how can a goat be the loss or unclean? The Lake of Fire is spiritual not physical.
 
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Oldmantook

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Yes on earth but where does God dwell? Everywhere the most important place is with in us. Much like the Garden of Eden where there will be no more death and sin. That means even roses will have no need for thorns
Believers are with God wherever He is as long as we abide in Him as the branches abide in the vine. However the notion that we will live with God in heaven forever is not scriptural because scripture plainly states that our final destination in the New Jerusalem which is situated on the the new earth.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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I agree with you, Truth. Even though they deny it, I see the roots of Calvinism in the teaching, which I also believe to be a demonic doctrine. We are too speak the Truth as led by the Holy Spirit. As Paul Simon wrote in his song, The Boxer: A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. Only God knows what needs to be said for a man to know the Truth, hence our need to be led by the Spirit.
You have a lot of condemnation with no facts. I am not a Calvinist I told you that and I use scripture not my bias opinion.. If you are led by the spirit as you claim than show up what God's Word is saying. There are plenty here who have something to say relevant to the thread.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Believers are with God wherever He is as long as we abide in Him as the branches abide in the vine. However the notion that we will live with God in heaven forever is not scriptural because scripture plainly states that our final destination in the New Jerusalem which is situated on the the new earth.

To be in heaven is to be in the presence of God
 
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Oldmantook

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A goat is a clean animal under the law of Moses. Jesus know this do you? So how can a goat be the loss or unclean? The Lake of Fire is spiritual not physical.
So why the need for a scape-goat in the Law? I disagree; the LOF is clearly physical. You may disagree as that is your prerogative.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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@Soar Like and Eagle
I never sense the Holy Spirit in what US people say. Only endless rationale and proof texting in an effort to bury people in their reasons. No one wants the world to perish, but all people choose their directions and the vast majority are selfish and self centered, thus evil. Jesus is God in the flesh, yet he wept over Jerusalem because they rejected him. You say he has an irresistable will, yet he could not save the majority.
So sad you broad brush all US people. Stay tuned and you will see Jesus blood is far greater than the sin of Adam. It was God's will Jerusalem rejected him they were a natural people and God desires a spiritual people. First the natural than the spiritual.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Show me where in the Bible Universal salvation is a heresy. Its not there. But you know what is there? The heresy of false teachers and prophets who damn people.

Are you saying that God is wrong? The Bible clearly says that those who have the mark of the beast will not be in heaven. Are you suggesting that they will one day? This is rank heresy!
 
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AlexDTX

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If it is so wrong show me?
It is a pointless doctrine. We already know the salvation of the Lord, so there is no benefit in believing the doctrine. And for those who do not know, they will be saved anyway, according to your doctrine, so there is no point telling them either.
 
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