If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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ClementofA

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Romans 9:20 puts it well for people like you. You will do well to heed it!

"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Who's answering back? I'm agreeing with Him & telling you what He says. You're the one answering back & rejecting His truth which agrees with the OP conclusions in this thread. And which has never been refuted, & is based on Who He is: Omniscient, Omnipresent, Love Omnipotent, Who is good and does good, Who is Light & in Whom is no darkness at all, whose love and mercy is never ending, & Who wills all be saved. Therefore all will be saved.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Who's answering back? I'm agreeing with Him & telling you what He says. You're the one answering back & rejecting His truth which agrees with the OP conclusions in this thread. And which has never been refuted, & is based on Who He is: Omniscient, Omnipresent, Love Omnipotent, Who is good and does good, Who is Light & in Whom is no darkness at all, whose love and mercy is never ending, & Who wills all be saved. Therefore all will be saved.

So, when Jesus warns the wicked sinners with "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:42), and tells Judas that it "would have been better if he were never born" (Matthew 26:24), because of his great sin as traitor, Jesus was just using meaningless and empty "warnings"? When the Bible speaks of "fleeing the wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7, etc), again this means absolutely nothing! If as you claim, based solely on God's love, with no regard to His Righteous Justice and Judgement, that "all will be saved", then what exactly is the whole point in Jesus Coming and suffering horribly on the cross, and going through great pain? The suffering that Jesus bore on the cross, is EXACTLY what the unrepentant sinner is going to get after death! When the Bible says that Christ suffered FOR us (those who repent and accept His salvation), it means that He took the pain and suffering that would have fallen on us! "For" in the Greek, is the preposition "ὑπέρ", meaning "on behalf of, taking the place of". If Jesus is not accepted as the one Sin-bearer, by any sinner, then what He took on the cross, must fall upon them! This is what the Righteous Justice and Judgement is all about. This is the Gospel of Salvation!

You have distorted the Bible's Teaching of the Gospel for hell-bound sinners, by giving them a false hope, which is no hope at all!
 
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ClementofA

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So, when Jesus warns the wicked sinners with "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:42), and tells Judas that it "would have been better if he were never born" (Matthew 26:24), because of his great sin as traitor, Jesus was just using meaningless and empty "warnings"? When the Bible speaks of "fleeing the wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7, etc), again this means absolutely nothing! If as you claim, based solely on God's love, with no regard to His Righteous Justice and Judgement, that "all will be saved", then what exactly is the whole point in Jesus Coming and suffering horribly on the cross, and going through great pain? The suffering that Jesus bore on the cross, is EXACTLY what the unrepentant sinner is going to get after death! When the Bible says that Christ suffered FOR us (those who repent and accept His salvation), it means that He took the pain and suffering that would have fallen on us! "For" in the Greek, is the preposition "ὑπέρ", meaning "on behalf of, taking the place of". If Jesus is not accepted as the one Sin-bearer, by any sinner, then what He took on the cross, must fall upon them! This is what the Righteous Justice and Judgement is all about. This is the Gospel of Salvation!

You have distorted the Bible's Teaching of the Gospel for hell-bound sinners, by giving them a false hope, which is no hope at all!

Please learn what others believe first before you continue to post any more misrepresentations. For people who rail against sin so much, how is this tolerable?

judas mk 14 21
Early church opposition to endless hell

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism
7 Myths About Universalism
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Please learn what others believe first before you continue to post any more misrepresentations. For people who rail against sin so much, how is this tolerable?

judas mk 14 21
Early church opposition to endless hell

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism
7 Myths About Universalism

So where is the Bible's "opposition" to endless hell? You have completely distorted the Bible's plain teaching on "endless punishment" for the wicked, and by doing so, are doing the bidding of the devil, by promoting his LIES!
 
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ClementofA

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So where is the Bible's "opposition" to endless hell? You have completely distorted the Bible's plain teaching on "endless punishment" for the wicked, and by doing so, are doing the bidding of the devil, by promoting his LIES!

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart


Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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So, when Jesus warns the wicked sinners with "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:42), and tells Judas that it "would have been better if he were never born" (Matthew 26:24), because of his great sin as traitor, Jesus was just using meaningless and empty "warnings"? When the Bible speaks of "fleeing the wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7, etc), again this means absolutely nothing! If as you claim, based solely on God's love, with no regard to His Righteous Justice and Judgement, that "all will be saved", then what exactly is the whole point in Jesus Coming and suffering horribly on the cross, and going through great pain? The suffering that Jesus bore on the cross, is EXACTLY what the unrepentant sinner is going to get after death! When the Bible says that Christ suffered FOR us (those who repent and accept His salvation), it means that He took the pain and suffering that would have fallen on us! "For" in the Greek, is the preposition "ὑπέρ", meaning "on behalf of, taking the place of". If Jesus is not accepted as the one Sin-bearer, by any sinner, then what He took on the cross, must fall upon them! This is what the Righteous Justice and Judgement is all about. This is the Gospel of Salvation!

You have distorted the Bible's Teaching of the Gospel for hell-bound sinners, by giving them a false hope, which is no hope at all!
There is no good news as you call it when billions of people God has never called are going to tortured forever and ever and ever WITH NO MERCY by your monster god. Jesus blood is the answer and His blood is far greater than the sin of Adam. God has many ages to save those He never called.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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So where is the Bible's "opposition" to endless hell? You have completely distorted the Bible's plain teaching on "endless punishment" for the wicked, and by doing so, are doing the bidding of the devil, by promoting his LIES!
Endless Hell is a myth and a bad translation on both words. Agely grave/pit/punishment would what God is doing. problem is there is no such word in the English for agely but the original Bible was not written in English.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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There is no good news as you call it when billions of people God has never called are going to tortured forever and ever and ever WITH NO MERCY by your monster god. Jesus blood is the answer and His blood is far greater than the sin of Adam. God has many ages to save those He never called.

be very careful how you speak of the God of the Holy Bible, with your godless rantings, of things you clearly do not understand!
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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be very careful how you speak of the God of the Holy Bible, with your godless rantings, of things you clearly do not understand!
I am just pointing out what you believe and you call it godless ranting. you are the one who believes Jesus is going to torture billions of lost souls for ever and ever and ever with NO mercy. I am the one that believes Jesus is a savior not a monster. Who's blood is far more powerful than the sin of Adam.

I doubt you even understand the severity of the doctrine of damning billions is? lets see if you even last a week in a serious debate about this issue.

This is what I believe and I see you don't
Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
 
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AlexDTX

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Interesting point Alex - but doesn't that go both ways?
If I understand your question, Gordon, I agree with you. Calvinists try to convince people to believe their point of view, as do others. I gloss over such posts, too. We all have the right to state what we think, including Universal Salvationists, but the work of convincing is by the Holy Spirit. Endless points and arguments do nothing unless the Spirit quickens those points in the heart. We are all called to speak the truth in love and to give an account for our faith when asked. But that does not mean we are to try forcing our point of view on others.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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If I understand your question, Gordon, I agree with you. Calvinists try to convince people to believe their point of view, as do others. I gloss over such posts, too. We all have the right to state what we think, including Universal Salvationists, but the work of convincing is by the Holy Spirit. Endless points and arguments do nothing unless the Spirit quickens those points in the heart. We are all called to speak the truth in love and to give an account for our faith when asked. But that does not mean we are to try forcing our point of view on others.
No one comes to the Father unless the farther draws him. John 6:44. The word draw means drag/forced. Lets say to tied me to your car and dragged me down a street. How much freewill or choice would I have? Same with God's love he must drag us out of our carnality for we are dead in trustpasses and sins. Eph 2 uses the same type of scenario but uses the word quicken or made alive
 
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AlexDTX

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No one comes to the Father unless the farther draws him. John 6:44. The word draw means drag/forced. Lets say to tied me to your car and dragged me down a street. How much freewill or choice would I have? Same with God's love he must drag us out of our carnality for we are dead in trustpasses and sins. Eph 2 uses the same type of scenario but uses the word quicken or made alive
So I state what I believe, and let the Father use what I have said, if it is what He needs, "to drag" people to him.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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So I state what I believe, and let the Father use what I have said, if it is what He needs, "to drag" people to him.
Most believers are blinded by the religious system and only see God's wrath and limited ability to save. Its as if the blood of Jesus is powerless over the mighty freewill of the Adamic race. Strange there is no freewill in being dragged? Carnal man has a freewill to do a lot of things but sure does not have a freewill to save him self because he is carnal and salvation is spiritual experience. How can that is dead in trustpasses and sin and dead to the realm of God freely choose something totally contrary to its nature? God is not calling the whole world now. He has many ages to do this
 
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Der Alte

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. . .
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. . . .
How does someone acquire the ability to read the minds of the authors of scripture 2000 years +/- years ago and know what they should have said in various situations. The writer of Hebrews did not compare anything to stoning. What he compared the sorer punishment to was "death without mercy."
 
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Hawkins

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To me, there are 2 wrong assumptions commonly made.

1. Not everyone is a child of God

It's a wrong assumption to assume that everyone is a child of God. The Canaanites are not God's people, only the Jews are. You can't call the Canaanites the sons of God. To God, they are the wolves jeopardizing His sheep the Jews.


2. It's a wrong assumption that you are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow

The biblical parables indicate that when a branch is cut off from the tree, its leaves will turn grey and to be burnt. They are no longer the green leaves as you suggest here. You don't know your own future to tell what will you be after leaving God.

An analogy is humans turning to zombies. You will choose to kill a whole city of zombies in order to save a single fellow human. When turned, the zombies are no longer with the same conscience as humans do.

You don't have to assume that you are the same person after separated from God, more likely you will be a sinning machine like Satan and no longer with any human conscience.

The justification behind is that, in order to pull humans out during their earthly stage, Jesus' crucifixion is needed. If you want to give relief to those in hell, Jesus needs to be crucified the second time, this however won't happen. There is no law nor justification to pull them out of that state.

This earth is not a natural environment, it's God made. Hell is the most natural environment but without God's maintenance.


In the end, God the God of the living but not the God of the dead.

Hebrews 3:11 (NIV2011)
So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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I am just pointing out what you believe and you call it godless ranting. you are the one who believes Jesus is going to torture billions of lost souls for ever and ever and ever with NO mercy. I am the one that believes Jesus is a savior not a monster. Who's blood is far more powerful than the sin of Adam.

I doubt you even understand the severity of the doctrine of damning billions is? lets see if you even last a week in a serious debate about this issue.

This is what I believe and I see you don't
Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

You cannot understand the Bible with humanistic sentements. Just because you think eternal punishment for the wicked is wrong, cannot equate to God's Righteous Judgement. He Justly destroyed entire families including babies, as He saw fit. And He is still Just in what He has done. It is not whether you or I agree but what the Lord decides
 
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he-man

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Luke 16
19 Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor. 20 And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire
25 But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. 26 And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
27 ‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’
29 But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.
30 ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
The word used is oduvaw which means distress, pain, sorrow and not torture
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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To me, there are 2 wrong assumptions commonly made.

1. Not everyone is a child of God

It's a wrong assumption to assume that everyone is a child of God. The Canaanites are not God's people, only the Jews are. You can't call the Canaanites the sons of God. To God, they are the wolves jeopardizing His sheep the Jews.


2. It's a wrong assumption that you are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow

The biblical parables indicate that when a branch is cut off from the tree, its leaves will turn grey and to be burnt. They are no longer the green leaves as you suggest here. You don't know your own future to tell what will you be after leaving God.

An analogy is humans turning to zombies. You will choose to kill a whole city of zombies in order to save a single fellow human. When turned, the zombies are no longer with the same conscience as humans do.

Nice opinion but lets look at Scripture. You are right God has ALWAYS had a chosen people that goes for the New Testament and the Old Testament. Israel is God's chosen people be it natural Israel in the Old Testament or spiritual Israel in the New Testament Testament.

God made a covenant with Abraham and God does not break His covenants.

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Who is Israel?


There were twelve tribes, the Bible had Benjamin and Joseph (11) born by Rachel the chosen bride, then their ten half brothers born by maid servants and their names were, Rueben(1), Simeon (2), Levi(3), Judah(4), Dan(5), Naphtali(6), Gad(7), Asher(8), Issachar(9) and Zebulun(10), this can be found in Genesis 29.


The twelve tribes under David and Solomon were one nation but later were separated in fact the name of the ten tribes during this separation was “Israel”. During the separation Judah and Benjamin were known as Judah. Israel; the northern ten tribes were later scattered and lost absorbed into many nations. Point being no one really knows where they are or who they are.


So your nation of Israel today is not Israel just two tribes Judah (Benjamin and Judah).

What did Jesus actually say was the only reason that he first came ?

Why is this not discussed or understood in the walls of religion today


Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israe

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel

BUT THERE IS MORE!!!!!

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; Iwill put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


So with this information who are the lost tribes, I will not answer because all I can do is assume, nor do I know how much sand is in a gallon jug; but compared to the sand in the sea shore, or the stars in the heaven; NOT MUCH.

Genesis 32:12And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

Genesis 22:16-18 (King James Version)
16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore[/b]; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

I see the sand as the natural Israel and the stars as the spiritual Israel

How many millions of grains of sand can you put in your two hands at the sea shore; how many stars can you count on a cold winter day; and that only the ones you can see. Just think how many grains of sand in a gallon jug? I think seeing there are only billions who lived on the earth from the beginning of time all men are included here.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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How does someone acquire the ability to read the minds of the authors of scripture 2000 years +/- years ago and know what they should have said in various situations. The writer of Hebrews did not compare anything to stoning. What he compared the the punishment to was "death without mercy."
Clem and Soar don't claim to know the mind of Christ. If they come to have the mind of Christ,
they won't believe the heresies any longer.
"How to" ? Simple.
Just like "born again" - only by God's Will , not by man's will, nor of the flesh, nor of the world.
 
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Why is this not discussed or understood in the walls of religion today
As written in Revelation 18, because pharmacy(the power of the prince of the power of the air throughout the whole world's/society's/ 'atmosphere'(spiritually) has deceived the WHOLE WORLD (even the religious world).
 
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