If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[FineLinen]

Dear he-man: you still have not taken a deep breath and explained why you add and take away words to the koine! Why do you?

66. Do you pray in FAITH, nothing doubting? (James 1:6)

67. Are you aware, "that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?" -- (Rom 14:23)

68. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?

69. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

70. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

71. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

72. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?

73. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)

74. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?

75. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?

To be continued

Questions requiring answers

 

[Choir Loft]

for many are called but few are chosen

My step-dad used to quote this passage over and over. Like many people he had no idea what it means. He just liked to say it because the words roll nicely off the tongue and because it seems to have some sort of meaning only understood by mystics. It is nothing of the sort. The Bible explains everything.

Who are the chosen, the few?

The Bible is clear.....the chosen are Jews. The Jews are the chosen people of God. Look it up.

Who are the many who are called?

If Jews are the chosen, then the many must refer to everybody else - gentiles.

Indeed, as the Book of Acts demonstrates, God has given the gift of free will choice of accepting His gracious gift of eternal life.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[he-man]

Dear he-man: you still have not taken a deep breath and explained why you add and take away words to the koine! Why do you?

66. Do you pray in FAITH, nothing doubting? (James 1:6)

67. Are you aware, "that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?" -- (Rom 14:23)

68. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?

69. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

70. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

71. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

72. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?

73. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)

74. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?

75. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?

To be continued

Questions requiring answers

John 3:18　 He that believes on him is not judged: but he that believes not has been already judged, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.　

Dear he-man: you still have not addressed why you continue to add and take away words to the sacred Canon! Why do you?

And again, and again why does the Saviour of all mankind speak in parable form of two clean animals to us? You will note the Scapegoat, Jesus the Christ, is not addressing sheep and pigs or sheep and dogs but two clean animals, WHY?

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/the-sheep-and-the-goats/

John 3:18

I guess you do not know Koine Greek? Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.

G2851 κόλασις kolasis From G2849; penal infliction:
A clean?

Mat 25:32　 and all the nations shall be gathered before him; and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;　

Mat 25:33　 and he will set the sheep on his right hand, and the goats on his left.　

that there is a right hand and a left hand with the Lord: they that are on the right hand, are such as have done well, and are לזכות, "for absolution"; and they that are on the left hand are criminals, and are לחובה, "for condemnation". Some think the allusion is to the two Scribes in the sanhedrim, who stood before the judges, one on the right hand, and the other on the left, and wrote the sentences; the one of those that were acquitted, and the other of those that were condemned (d), [GILL]

(c) Jarchi in Gen. i. 26. Kimchi in 1 Kings xxii. 19. Lex. Cabalist. p. 132. Zohar in Numb. fol. 93. 4. (d) Misn. Sanhedrin, c. 4. sect. 3. Maimon. Hilch. Sanhedrin, c. 1. sect. 9. Moses Kotsensis Mitzvot Tora pr. affirm. 97.

κολασις κολασμός Hp.Praec.5, Pl.Ap.26a, al., Th.1.41; opp. τιμωρία, Arist.Rh.1369b13; of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46 penalize, fine
κολάζω (twice in GNT, Acts 4:21; II Pet. 2:9)
κολάσομαι, Future Middle
κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (noun): "a correction, chastisement, punishment, penalty, torment"
CYCLOPEDIA OF BIBLICAL, THEOLOGICAL, AND ECCLESIASTICAL LITERATURE.
PREPARED BY THE REV. JOHN M'CLINTOCK, D.D., AND Dr. JAMES STRONG, S.T.D.

Matthew 10:28 And be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but fear rather him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Fear him - It is, not hell-fire we are to fear, but it is God; without the stroke of whose justice hell itself would be no punishment, and whose frown would render heaven itself insupportable. What strange blindness is it to expose our souls to endless ruin, which should enjoy God eternally; and to save and pamper the body, by which we enjoy nothing but the creatures, and them only for a moment! [CLARKE]

Matthew 23:33 Serpents, offspring of vipers, how should ye escape the judgment of hell? the everlasting vengeance and wrath of God, the unquenchable fire prepared for the devil and his angels, and which impenitent unbelieving sinners cannot escape,
(p) T. Bab. Berncot, fol. 61. 1. Erubin, fol. 18. 2. Yebamot, fol. 102. 2. Sota, fol. 4. 2. & 5. 1. & Bava Bathra, fol. 10. 1. (q) Bemidbar Rabba, fol. 203. 1. Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 14. 2. & Midrash Kohelet, fol. 76. 1. [GILL]

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaks. For if those did not escape who had refused him who uttered the oracles on earth, much more we who turn away from him who does so from heaven:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens.

Matthew 7:23 and then will I avow unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, workers of lawlessness.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Heb 6:8 but bringing forth thorns and briars, it is found worthless and nigh to a curse, whose end is to be burned.
shall not see life; eternal life; he shall not enter into it, and enjoy it; he shall die the second death [BARNES]
Luke 13:28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves cast out.

Joh 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him. Shall not see life - Shall neither enjoy true life or happiness here nor in the world to come. Shall never enter heaven. [BARNES] shall not see life; eternal life; he shall not enter into it, and enjoy it; he shall die the second death. Very remarkable are the following words of the Jews (b) concerning the Messiah, whom they call the latter Redeemer: [GILL]

1 Jonn 5:12 He that has the Son has life: he that has not the Son of God has not life.
Revelation 20:15 And if any one was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:27 And nothing common, nor that maketh an abomination and a lie, shall at all enter into it; but those only who are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

John 3:18　 He that believes on him is not judged: but he that believes not has been already judged, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.　

 

[he-man]

My step-dad used to quote this passage over and over. Like many people he had no idea what it means. He just liked to say it because the words roll nicely off the tongue and because it seems to have some sort of meaning only understood by mystics. It is nothing of the sort. The Bible explains everything.

Who are the chosen, the few?

The Bible is clear.....the chosen are Jews. The Jews are the chosen people of God. Look it up.

Who are the many who are called?

If Jews are the chosen, then the many must refer to everybody else - gentiles.

Indeed, as the Book of Acts demonstrates, God has given the gift of free will choice of accepting His gracious gift of eternal life.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

John 3:18　 He that believes on him is not judged: but he that believes not has been already judged, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.　

 

[FineLinen]

The God, Who is Love, is thus in practice changed into an Almighty Proconsul, while the Savior of Men is disguised in the garb of a Roman Governor. Not the mercy-seat, but the seat of judgment is presented to the eye.

An inflexible code, and an unbending Judge rule all; on every side is diffused a sense of terror. Love is subordinate, sin becomes the central fact; guilt, not grace, comes first. "Our Father" to all practical purposes, disappears, while the great Taskmaster, or the Moral Governor, or the Accountant-General takes His place.

It is not that in so many words the love of God and the divine Fatherhood, are denied, but that they are so often recognized in words only. Shrunken, atrophied, palsied, the doctrine remains, as in some country where the rightful monarch has not been formally dethroned, but has dwindled into a puppet.

Such a system may call itself the Gospel, may point to the support of the greatest names, and be taught in thousands of pulpits (often softened, but the same essentially), yet it is a counterfeit and no true Gospel.

Where has the bright and joyous Christianity vanished which covered the dark recesses of the Catacomb; with every symbol, that could attest joy and triumph, but gave no place to any dark and painful image, not even to the Cross? Why was this? Because to these men the victory of Jesus Christ was a thing really believed in, a fact actually realized, and dominating all else.

Because they believed that death, and its sting, was really, truly, universally SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. And so they loved to paint Christ radiant with youth and strength, true and absolute Conqueror of death and hell. Perpetual death, moral rottenness for ever festering, what place - such were their thoughts- have such things in a restored creation?

Why is the Christ of religious art now so sad, with anguished features and drooping head - is it because He mourns His approaching defeat?

Why have we so very generally banished from our churches the figure of the risen and triumphant Lord- is it because in our heart of hearts we feel in how many cases He fails to triumph? Whither has gone the Vision so noble, so tender, and yet so strong, of the victorious Christ as He descends into Hades, and opening the prison doors brings the disobedient dead back to life?

Yes, "they have taken our Lord away and we know not where they have laid Him." They have taken "Our Father," too, "the All Father," and we know not where to find Him.

For bread they give us a stony creed; judgment without mercy; hell without hope; evil without end; heaven without pity for the lost and the suffering; and a world here, in which to live is truly misery to the thoughtful, as being but the portal and antechamber to endless woe, for so many of their brothers and sisters in Christ, whom they are commanded to love as they love themselves.

-Christ Triumphant-

 

[ClementofA]

Matthew 7:23 and then will I avow unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, workers of lawlessness.

Regarding the word "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..."http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."?

Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to. "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless torments it's next to nothing.

In that light, Mt.7:21-23 is more favorable to universalism than endless punishment.

Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.
Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

Matthew 7:23 refers to a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[2tim_215]

When Jesus died for you and suffered tremendous torment for you, if you reject that notion, what do you expect from God, eternal heaven?
Hebrews 3:7-13 (KJV)
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:14-19 (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
provocation G3894 - from <G3893> (parapikraino); irritation :- provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
provoke G3893 from <G3844> (para) and <G4087> (pikraino); to embitter alongside, i.e. (figurative) to exasperate :- provoke
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
believed - G544 from <G545> (apeithes); to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely) :- not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
unbelief - G570 from <G571> (apistos); faithlessness, i.e. (negative) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positive) unfaithfulness (disobedience) :- unbelief.

Hebrews 12:3-8 (KJV)
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Are we sons or are we bastards?

 

[he-man]

Regarding the word "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease...

Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."?

Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to. "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless torments it's next to nothing.

In that light, Mt.7:21-23 is more favorable to universalism than endless punishment.

Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.
Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

Matthew 7:23 refers to a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

non believers have been judged already as condemned and shall not enter the Kingdom John 3:18

 

[he-man]

The God, Who is Love, is thus in practice changed into an Almighty Proconsul, while the Savior of Men is disguised in the garb of a Roman Governor. Not the mercy-seat, but the seat of judgment is presented to the eye.

An inflexible code, and an unbending Judge rule all; on every side is diffused a sense of terror. Love is subordinate, sin becomes the central fact; guilt, not grace, comes first. "Our Father" to all practical purposes, disappears, while the great Taskmaster, or the Moral Governor, or the Accountant-General takes His place.

It is not that in so many words the love of God and the divine Fatherhood, are denied, but that they are so often recognized in words only. Shrunken, atrophied, palsied, the doctrine remains, as in some country where the rightful monarch has not been formally dethroned, but has dwindled into a puppet.

Such a system may call itself the Gospel, may point to the support of the greatest names, and be taught in thousands of pulpits (often softened, but the same essentially), yet it is a counterfeit and no true Gospel.

Where has the bright and joyous Christianity vanished which covered the dark recesses of the Catacomb; with every symbol, that could attest joy and triumph, but gave no place to any dark and painful image, not even to the Cross? Why was this? Because to these men the victory of Jesus Christ was a thing really believed in, a fact actually realized, and dominating all else.

Because they believed that death, and its sting, was really, truly, universally SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. And so they loved to paint Christ radiant with youth and strength, true and absolute Conqueror of death and hell. Perpetual death, moral rottenness for ever festering, what place - such were their thoughts- have such things in a restored creation?

Why is the Christ of religious art now so sad, with anguished features and drooping head - is it because He mourns His approaching defeat?

Why have we so very generally banished from our churches the figure of the risen and triumphant Lord- is it because in our heart of hearts we feel in how many cases He fails to triumph? Whither has gone the Vision so noble, so tender, and yet so strong, of the victorious Christ as He descends into Hades, and opening the prison doors brings the disobedient dead back to life?

Yes, "they have taken our Lord away and we know not where they have laid Him." They have taken "Our Father," too, "the All Father," and we know not where to find Him.

For bread they give us a stony creed; judgment without mercy; hell without hope; evil without end; heaven without pity for the lost and the suffering; and a world here, in which to live is truly misery to the thoughtful, as being but the portal and antechamber to endless woe, for so many of their brothers and sisters in Christ, whom they are commanded to love as they love themselves.

-Christ Triumphant-

John 3:18

 

[ClementofA]

When Jesus died for you and suffered tremendous torment for you, if you reject that notion, what do you expect from God, eternal heaven?

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Hebrews 3:7-13 (KJV)
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:14-19 (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
provocation G3894 - from <G3893> (parapikraino); irritation :- provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
provoke G3893 from <G3844> (para) and <G4087> (pikraino); to embitter alongside, i.e. (figurative) to exasperate :- provoke
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
believed - G544 from <G545> (apeithes); to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely) :- not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
unbelief - G570 from <G571> (apistos); faithlessness, i.e. (negative) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positive) unfaithfulness (disobedience) :- unbelief.

Unbelievers cannot enter into God's "rest" which is found in Christ Jesus:

Mt.11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

non believers have been judged already as condemned and shall not enter the Kingdom John 3:18

That verse says nothing about any "Kingdom".

 

[FineLinen]

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf




Unbelievers cannot enter into God's "rest" which is found in Christ Jesus:

Mt.11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[FineLinen]

The equation is equal on both sides! In Adam1 the mass of mankind are "made sinners">>>>>>>In the Last Adam the mass of mankind "are made righteous"!

In Adam the polus of mankind are made sinners, in Christ the polus of mankind are made righteous.

 

[Choir Loft]

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

John 3:18　 He that believes on him is not judged: but he that believes not has been already judged, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.　

These quotes correctly refer to "the many", but they do not mention the chosen few that your previous post quoted. Who are the chosen-as in many are called but few are....????

You have forgotten the place of the Jew - first in line AND THEN comes the gentile.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[he-man]

That verse says nothing about any "Kingdom".

Huh? Do you just read one verse and stop? in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish

Matthew 7:13 Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who enter in through it.
Mark 16:16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.

Luke 13:24 Strive with earnestness to enter in through the narrow door, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in and will not be able.

John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Hebrews 3:19 And we see that they could not enter in on account of unbelief

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved.

 

[he-man]

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying." Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Really, is that what YOU think?
Rom 5:18
Titus 2:11,12,13 For the grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared, 12 teaching us that, having denied impiety and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, and justly, and piously in the present course of things, 13 awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

1 John 2:22,23 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? *He* is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son has not the Father either; he who confesses the Son has the Father also.

John 5:23 that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He who honours not the Son, honours not the Father who has sent him.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Hebrews 10:26,27,28,29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and heat of fire about to devour the adversaries. 28 Any one that has disregarded Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses:

died without mercy; a corporeal death; there was no atonement nor sacrifice for him, nor pity to be shown him, Deuteronomy 13:16 [GILL] And all the spoil of it shalt thou gather into the midst of the open place thereof, and shalt burn the city with fire, and all the spoil thereof, wholly to Jehovah thy God; and it shall be a heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 29 of how much worse punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and esteemed the blood of the covenant, whereby he has been sanctified, common, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Is not this precisely the crime of which the apostle speaks here, and to which he tells us God would show no mercy? “It is the curse of evil eternally to propagate evil: so, for him who profanes the Christ without him, and blasphemes the Christ within him, there is subjectively no renewal of a change of mind (Hebrews 6:8), and objectively no new sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26, 27) [Tholuck].

Hebrews 6:8 but bringing forth thorns and briars, it is found worthless and nigh to a curse, whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:26,27 For where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and heat of fire about to devour the adversaries. [CLARKE] 30 For we know him that said, To me belongs vengeance; *I* will recompense, saith the Lord: and again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing falling into the hands of the living God.

 

[2tim_215]

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf




Unbelievers cannot enter into God's "rest" which is found in Christ Jesus:

Mt.11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

You think that stoning to death is pleasant, lol. I sure wouldn't want to go out that way. I do agree with most of what you say here for the most part.

 

[ClementofA]

You think that stoning to death is pleasant, lol. I sure wouldn't want to go out that way. I do agree with most of what you say here for the most part.

I never said stoning to death is pleasant.

 

[ClementofA]

Huh? Do you just read one verse and stop?

You only posted one verse & commented re a kingdom. I pointed out that that verse says nothing about any "kingdom".

 

[ClementofA]

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved.

A better translation is:

10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God
send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (YLT)

Perishing is the same word used of the "lost" prodigal son who was saved. So that a person perishes does not mean they are lost forever or cannot be saved later.

The passage refers to the future when Christ returns. The lost will not be saved...at that time. No reference is made in 2 Thess 2 to how long they will be punished, if such is corrective or purely sadistic, or final destiny.

So 2 Thess.2:10 fails as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. What you need to disprove universalism is a verse saying anyone will "never be saved" or suffer "endless punishment", etc. Since such does not exist, there is no Scriptural refutation of universalism.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151

None of the verses that anyone has posted refute universalism. They have all been addressed.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html