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If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 28, 2017.

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  1. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    First you have to know that what you teach is the truth!
    1 John 3:19-22 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.


    Are you hard of hearing?
    1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Are you hard of hearing?
    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Are you hard of hearing?
    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


    I thought you said: ' He is not the Saviour of only those who believe/ trust in Him.'
    1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    Hebrews 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
    Hebrews 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
    Hebrews 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
    Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

    1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

    You didn't finish the sentence: God is the Saviour of all mankind to them that love him. James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    Because of unbelief only eight souls out of the whole world, were saved from the flood
    2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and eternal destruction of ungodly men. [ABP+]






     
  2. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Huh?
    Don't you know the difference between past and FUTURE tense? ..and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
    Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him Job 42:11

    In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge)
     
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear he-man: you my friend have a bad habit of adding words to Canon and changing words of the koine. You can never know the truth with a direction such as this! Forget the colored Scripture and focus on a new direction! If and when you do this, you could begin a road that leads to the Author of truth.

    Dear he-man: I fear you have twisted the Canon again! Our God is the Saviour of all mankind. ALL! But wait, our God is the Saviour especially of those who believe/trust in Him. You will note: He is not Saviour of only those who believe! What part of monon do you not grasp? "Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers. Command this and teach this."

    Note

    1. God is the Saviour of all mankind.

    2. He is not a potential Saviour.

    3. He is [the] Saviour of all mankind.

    4. He is not the Saviour of only those who believe/ trust in Him.

    5. He is the Saviour "especially" of those who trust in Him.

    6. Command this & teach this.
     
  4. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Not true .
    Matthew 25:41-46 King James Version (KJV)
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Chinchilla: you can declare "not true " to St Paul till the cows come home. You will weary in your effort, but go for it!

    "Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers. Command this and teach this."

    Especially= malista

    Only= monon/ monos

    1 Tim. 4.10=

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/1-timothy/4-10-compare.html
     
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/

    The Sheep & The Goats
     
  7. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    1 John 3:19-22 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.

    You didn't answer: Are you hard of hearing?
    1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    You didn't answer: Are you hard of hearing?
    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    You didn't answer: Are you hard of hearing?
    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    I thought you said: ' He is not the Saviour of only those who believe/ trust in Him.'
    1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    Hebrews 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
    Hebrews 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
    Hebrews 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
    Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

    1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

    You didn't finish the sentence: God is the Saviour of all mankind to them that love him. James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    Because of unbelief only eight souls out of the whole world, were saved from the flood
    2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and eternal destruction of ungodly men. [ABP+] G765 ἀσεβής From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G4576; irreverent, that is, (by extension) impious or wicked: - ungodly (man). G684 ἀπώλεια
    From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

    Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.
    King James Version (KJV)
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear he-man: you still have not addressed why you continue to add and take away words to the sacred Canon! Why do you?

    And again, and again why does the Saviour of all mankind speak in parable form of two clean animals to us? You will note the Scapegoat, Jesus the Christ, is not addressing sheep and pigs or sheep and dogs but two clean animals, WHY?

    http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/the-sheep-and-the-goats/
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear he-man: when you address the previous post without attempting a diversion of Scripture in black and white or colored, I will delight to speak to you of the visit of the Resurrected Man from the Glory to the "disobedient" ones from the great flood. Now, take a deep breath, and explain why you behave like you do?
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."


    For some other parallels in Scripture consider:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all IN ALL.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: 32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/
    http://www.city-data.com/forum/52170878-post9.html
    http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2930314-what-does-matthew-25-46-mean.html
    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/
     
  11. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is because Revelation is referring to future events and not past ones when Satan will be cast down to earth for once and for all. Satan is described in Job, resides somewhere in heaven above and has the ability to go "to and fro" on the earth, tried to "sift Peter like wheat" and if you believe what Ezekiel wrote is "the anointed cherub".

    At first John is talking about the later church and the he tells us about what will happen prior to Jesus return. Then we find out what the resurrected Jesus will in the process of claiming His throne and what will eventually happen to Satan who will ultimately be cast into the bottomless pit and after 1000 years be cast into the Lake of fire for all of eternity along with his rebellious angels. The Lake of fire was made for Satan and not for man originally.

    I really don't care too much about mainstream Judaism. The Jews did so many things wrong with respect to God. They even crucified their own God. One of the things that Jesus said to them during His ministry was the following

    Luke 19:42-44 (KJV)

    42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

    43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

    44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

    The Jews didn't realize that they were being visited by their God Himself while Jesus was performing His ministry on earth which is unfortunate for them and is probably the reason that they are in their present state today, surrounded by their enemies.

    As stated temptation is generated by Satan who is well aware of our weaknesses and is not from God which is a false teaching. These are all men who I've never heard of that you mention with the exception of Newton. But men like Wesley, Sturgeon, Schofield, Torrey, Jesus nor the Apostle Paul or Peter for that matter just to name a few. I believe that both Luther and Calvin believed in the existence of Satan (although may not have believed in Lucifer).

    Isaac Newton was a great scientist, but not a great theologian in my opinion. Thomas Jefferson wrote his own Bible (called the Jefferson Bible) but took out all of Jesus miracles because he didn’t believe in miracles. Just because you’re good in one discipline doesn’t mean you’re good when it comes to understanding the Word of God.

    That's probably what Job thought. He had no way of knowing that Satan was in the mix.

    I beg to differ with you as do so many others who I believe are more qualified than those you reference who do believe that this referring to Satan. Some pretty good men of God snd Bible interpreters.

    If you look at the entire verse, it appears that it wasn’t Job who said that but it was his friends and family who said that and blamed God for Job’s suffering. None of them would have had the knowledge of who was really behind what Job went through and what was going on in the background. We know because God gave us the book of Job where God gives the behind the scene with Satan the one who initiates Jobs predicament. It comes through a challenge to God who Satan claims that if Job were put through some hardship that he will turn on God so God accepts his challenge. I don't know if Job ever knew that it was Satan, I don't see anywhere in the Book of Job that God told him about Satan and what he was doing to him in the backdrop, but He told us fortunately in order that we might know who our real enemy is.

    Job 42:11 (KJV) Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before,and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

    This really is the only way that it makes sense. Otherwise there's pretty much no hope. All you have to look at is Jesus character and that tells us what kind of a person that God is he-man.
     
  12. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    If that was future of when satan was cast down to earth. Where did he come from before that happened? Do you only read one verse?
    A Lament over the King of Tyre
    Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
    You can see it is talking about the merchants of Tyre and not a devil.

    By the multitude of thy merchandise,.... With the several nations of the earth, who came to the markets and fairs of Tyre, and to whom she sent her goods:
    they have filled the midst of thee with violence; or, as the Targum,
    "thy treasures are filled with rapine;'' with ill gotten goods, as the pope's coffers are through his merchandise of the souls of men, and the great trade that is driven in pardons and indulgences:
    "I will destroy thee, O king that art anointed, because thou thoughtest to rule over the holy people.'' [GILL]

    Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

    The words are an hyperbolical exaggeration of the wickedness of those cities, like to Ezekiel 3:5 showing, that they were worse than the Tyrians and Sidonians; an Heathenish and idolatrous people, who lived very profligate and dissolute lives, in all intemperance, luxury, and impiety; and therefore would be punished in a severer way: neither this passage, nor what follows, can be any proof of God's giving sufficient grace to all men alike, which in some is effectual to conversion, and in others not, but of the contrary; since the men of Tyre and Sidon had not the same means, or the same grace, as the inhabitants of the other cities, if the mighty works done among them are to be called so [GILL] (l) Chorogr. Cent. in Matth. p. 84. Vol. 2. (m) Philocalia, p. 109.
    It wasn't the Jews only, it was the Priests and Elders who crucified him.


    Matthew 16:21  From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
    Newton saw his own biblical and historical researches as part of a recovery of the purity of the primitive faith of Christianity.

    It was Newton’s firm belief that Christians should avoid speculative extrapolations from biblical doctrine and the introduction of foreign ideas to it, both of which can lead to error, and stick with the descriptive accounts of God and Christ found in the Bible.
    Newton came to believe that the Bible does not teach a literal personal devil or literal personal demons (he had no trouble accepting literal angels). His view on Satan is very similar to the teaching of Judaism that Satan is not a personal being, but rather a personification of the evil inclination (yetzer ha-ra) within the human heart.

    The demons of the Synoptic Gospels, Newton concluded, were not meant to be taken literally; instead, the language of the Bible here is accommodating itself to the sensibilities of the common people, just as Newton believed it does when it describes the apparent motion of the sun. For Newton, the demon-possessed people whom Jesus healed were simply mentally or physically ill.

    Instead, these conclusions were the result of his biblicism and, likely, his strong monotheism that rendered belief in supernatural evil beings a threat to the unchallenged sovereignty of the One God Whom he worshipped.

    The recent accessibility of the manuscripts is the main reason why the study of Newton’s theology and alchemy is only now beginning to flourish. Added excitement is created every so often when some of the few scattered sheets in Newton’s hand remaining in private collections come up for auction. Small though they are, these documents continue to add to our knowledge of Newton’s theology and the relationship between his theology and his science.

    He also believed that Christ would establish a worldwide Kingdom of God on earth and that this Kingdom would bring about peace and prosperity of the world’s inhabitants. Based on his reading of Old Testament and New Testament prophecies, he believed peace would prevail between nations, within the animal kingdom and between wild animals and humans. The Jews would be restored to their land Israel after centuries of captivity. Jerusalem, now a city of contention for the world and the three monotheistic world religions, would become the capital city, as it were, of this worldwide Kingdom.

    For Newton, Christ is to be King of this Kingdom and the saints (whom Newton would have identified as the righteous) are to reign over this Kingdom with Christ (Revelation 20:4-6). https://isaac-newton.org/
    God wrote the Bible not Job.
    This is Job speaking and not his friends:
    Job 19:21  Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

    Are you like the foolish woman who did not know that God controls both good and evil?
    Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

    Job 12:6  The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly.

    This is Job speaking and not his friends:

    Job 19:21  Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

    Job 27:11  I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.

    I will teach you that God controls both good and evil!
    Job 27:22  For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

    Job 27:13  This is the portion of a wicked man with God, and the heritage of oppressors, which they shall receive of the Almighty. 
     
  13. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    I guess you do not know Koine Greek? Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.

    G2851 κόλασις kolasis From G2849; penal infliction:
    A
    clean?

    Mat 25:32  and all the nations shall be gathered before him; and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 

    Mat 25:33  and he will set the sheep on his right hand, and the goats on his left. 

    that there is a right hand and a left hand with the Lord: they that are on the right hand, are such as have done well, and are לזכות, "for absolution"; and they that are on the left hand are criminals, and are לחובה, "for condemnation". Some think the allusion is to the two Scribes in the sanhedrim, who stood before the judges, one on the right hand, and the other on the left, and wrote the sentences; the one of those that were acquitted, and the other of those that were condemned (d), [GILL]

    (c) Jarchi in Gen. i. 26. Kimchi in 1 Kings xxii. 19. Lex. Cabalist. p. 132. Zohar in Numb. fol. 93. 4. (d) Misn. Sanhedrin, c. 4. sect. 3. Maimon. Hilch. Sanhedrin, c. 1. sect. 9. Moses Kotsensis Mitzvot Tora pr. affirm. 97.
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear he-man: koine is NOT the issue!

    You still have not addressed why you continue to add and take away words to the sacred Canon! Why do you?

    And again, and again why does the Saviour of all mankind speak in parable form of two clean animals to us? You will note the Scapegoat, Jesus the Christ, is not addressing sheep and pigs, or sheep and dogs, but two clean animals, WHY?

    http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/the-sheep-and-the-goats/
     
  15. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you? We really don't know hen Satan will be cast down to earth. What we do know is that he will eventually. In the meantime we know that he's somehow wreaking havoc on us.

    So the "King of Tyre" was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty?

    The King of Tyre was anointed by God?

    The priests and Elders were Jewish Priests and Elders.

    Again, Jewish Priests and Elders, all Jewish.

    So therefore (neglecting the King of Tyre for the moment do both you and Newton reject the other mentions of Satan including Rev 12:7-9 and Job 1, sifting Peter like wheat and roaming the earth to and fro?

    And where do you think mental illness comes from? Is it possible that it comes from demonic influence? Perhaps Newton didn't want to believe in the existence of such supernatural forces such as Satan and demons and chose to believe this.

    I'd say it was more of his biblical interpretation and his particular slant on the stuff. There is no challenge to God's sovereignty (that's a false presumption), the Devil and his followers are all created beings and are no match for the creator who is the uncreated one. Alchemy is form of magic or witchcraft which if practiced by Newton was likely considered to be an abomination by God. Satan or his demons or no challenge to God's sovereignty. That's just false.

    People are always looking for another slant on the Bible and God's word in order to make it more "palatable" for themselves. Might be interesting from a historical perspective on Newton, but other than that I personally wouldn't rely on it. I'd much rather rely on the works of the many great Bible expositors, some of which I've mentioned.

    He was right about this. People can be right about some things, and wrong about others which I believe to be the case with Newton (based on what you've shared about him) when it comes to the Bible. Like I said, he was a great scientist, no doubt.

    He's right about this also. I don't believe too many Christians would disagree with him on this.

    Again. That is what Job thinks. In this instance, and many others we are being given Job's thoughts and the record of what actually happened and why it happened in addition to what was said by all the actors as well as well as what was happening in the background (unbeknownst to Job and his friends)

    This is Job's wife, the same woman who would tell Job to "curse God and die" and whom God would eventually strike dead along with his sons so we definitely know what she thought. Certainly not a woman of God. Again Job did not know what had gone on in the background and that Satan was behind this and neither did Job's wife obviously (how could you and Newton ignore Job 1 which you would have to do in order to support your position)?

    OK. So how does this detract from Satan's involvement in this and this happens to be Job speaking and not his friends once more. Again, Job is speaking what he knows, or what he thinks he knows. Because he has such faith in God, he's trying to figure out what's happening to him and why and concludes it must be because God's behind it but somehow but he doesn't really understand why.

    He thinks it's God, but in reality it's not.

    A case where something is truth but is being improperly applied to the case of Job due to lack of knowledge.

    Neither Job nor his friends knew of Satan's involvement so the natural assumption they would all make that it was God who was responsible for Job's misery. However, they were all wrong. I don't believe anywhere in the Book of Job that God tells Job, his friends or anyone else that Job was being punished by Satan who was trying to break him, even when God shows up out of the whirlwind and addresses him and his friends in chapter 38.
     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Can we call this the greatest understatement this year !?
    Thanks be to Yahweh ABBA, in Jesus our Savior Master Messiah,
    that Jesus has overcome the world,
    so "be of good cheer" ! :)
    though we are daily led to slaughter and hated by the world,
    He will return soon for us all, everyone already passed on in Him,
    and those of us still alive on earth when He returns (if anyone is left) ...
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."


    For some other parallels in Scripture consider:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all IN ALL.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: 32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/
    http://www.city-data.com/forum/52170878-post9.html
    http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2930314-what-does-matthew-25-46-mean.html
    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/



    According to this alleged quote of Trench κόλασις, as opposed to τιμωρία, has "more the notion of punishment as it has reference to the correction and bettering of the offender (see Philo, Leg, ad Cai. I; Josephus, Antt. ii. 6. 8); it is ‘castigatio,’ and naturally has for the most part a milder use than τιμωρία. Thus Plato (Protag. 323 e) joins κολάσεις and νουθετήσεις together: and the whole passage to the end of the chapter is eminently instructive as to the distinction between the words: οὐδεὶς κολάζει τοὺς ἀδικοῦντας ὅτι ἠδίκησεν, ὅστις μὴ ὥσπερ θηρίον ἀλογίστως τιμωρεῖται, ... ἀλλὰ τοῦ μέλλοντος χάριν ἵνα μὴ αὖθις ἀδικήσῃ; the same change in the words which he employs, occurring again twice or thrice in the sentence; with all which may be compared what Clement of Alexandria has said, Strom. iv. 24; and again vii. 16, where he defines κολάσεις as μερικαὶ παιδεῖαι, and τιμωρία as κακοῦ ἀνταπόδοσις. And this is Aristotle’s distinction (Rhet. i. 10): διαφέρει δὲ τιμωρία καὶ κόλασις· ἡ μὲν γὰρ κόλασις τοῦ πάσχοντος ἕνεκά ἐστιν· ἡ δὲ τιμωρία, τοῦ ποιοῦντος, ἵνα ἀποπληρωθῇ: cf. Ethic. Nic. iv. 5: τιμωρία παύει τῆς ὀργῆς, ἠδονῆν ἀντὶ τῆς λύπης ἐμποιοῦσα. It is to these and similar definitions that Aulus Gellius refers when he says (Noct. Att. vi. 14): ‘Puniendis peccatis tres esse debere causas existimatum est. Una est quae νουθεσία, vel, κόλασις, vel παραίνεσις dicitur; cum poena adhibetur castigandi atque emendandi gratiâ; ut is qui fortuito deliquit, attentior fiat, correctiorque. Altera est quam ii, qui vocabula ista curiosius diviserunt, τιμωρίαν appellant. Ea causa animadvertendi est, cum dignitas auctoritasque ejus, in quem est peccatum, tuenda est, ne praetermissa animadversio contemtum ejus pariat, et honorem levet: idcircoque id ei vocabulum a conservatione honoris factum putant.’ There is a profound commentary on these words in Göschel’s Zerstreute Blätter, part 2, p. 343–360; compare too an instructive note in Wyttenbach’s Animadd. in Plutarch. vol. xii. p. 776." https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/trench/section.cfm?sectionID=7

    So in favor of κόλασις (or κολάζω) being corrective Trench lists quotes from Plato, Aristotle, Philo, Josephus, Aulus Gellius & Clement of Alexandria. To those we could add early church universalists such as Oregon, Gregory Nyssa & many others. Moulton & Milligan continue to add to that list as follows:

    "The meaning ";cut short,"; which the presumable connexion with κόλος and κολούω would suggest, seems to be the original sense of the word. In the Paris Thesaurus we find quotations for the meaning ";prune"; (κόλασις τῶν δένδρων), and a number of late passages where the verb denotes ";correcting,"; ";cutting down"; a superfluity. Thus Galen ad Galatians 1:1-24 τὰ γὰρ ἐναντία τῶν ἐναντίων ἰάματά ἐστι, κολάζοντα μὲν τὸ ὑπερβάλλον. Of course this may be a derived sense, like that of castigo and of our ";correct,"; but in any case it is clearly a familiar sense during the NT period, and we cannot leave it out of consideration when we examine this very important word." https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/2849.html

    In addition to those, under the section on κολάζω in TDNT, J. Schneider notes regarding "inscr. given by Steinleitner from Phrygian and Lydian monuments of the imperial period" that in "these inscriptions the sins punished by deity are those against the deity itself, e.g. violations of the sacred cultic laws. The deity smites the offender with sickness and infirmity, or even punishes himself and his family with death. The sinner can win back the grace of the deity only by open confession of his guilt. In this way alone can he be liberated from sickness and misfortune."

    TDNT adds regarding Philo's view of the "legislative power of God" that this "power divides into two branches, the one for the rewarding of the good and the other for the punishment of sinners. Philo's view of God includes the insight that in God mercy is older than punishment (Deus Imm.,76) and that God would rather forgive than punish (Spec.Leg., II,196...). Punishment is for those who are not amenable to reason (Agric.,40). Thus punishment may seem to be the greatest evil, but it is to be regarded as the greatest blessing for fools, loc. cit. This is a Stoic view" ("Theological Dictionary of the New Testament", TDNT, ed. G. Kittel, Vol.3, p.815).

    The "New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis" (NIDNTTE, ed. Moises Silva, 2014, Vol. II, p.716-718) concurs with TDNT's remarks above.

    NIDTTE also refers to the 5 NT occurrences of the "derived vb. κολαφίζω" (kolaphizo, Strongs # 2852), "to strike (with the fist), fig. torment". It is used twice of "the Jewish leaders who struck Jesus during his trial before the Sanhedrin (Matt 26:67 = Mark 14:65)." (NIDTTE, p.718).

    "Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him," (Mt.26:67; NASB).

    There are no indications of an intent to correct Jesus via such actions by these evil human beings. Rather it seems vindictive or sadistic. Likewise with the occurrences of kolaphizo at 1 Pet.2:20 & 1 Cor.4:11, does the "buffeting" or ""to strike (with the fist), fig. torment" have no hint of correction.

    In all 4 cases of kolaphizo mentioned so far, they all are at the hands of men & do not indicate a corrective or beneficial purpose to those receiving such "torments". However, in the 5th occurrence of this word in the New Testament, that changes.

    In 2 Cor.12:7 is the only one of the 5 that refer to a Divinely given kolaphizo (compare Mt.25:46). In this context the Lord gives Paul a thorn in the flesh to "torment" or "buffet" [κολαφίζῃ] him, not as a sadistic or vindictive retribution with no thought of benefit to Paul, but rather for Paul's own good:

    "7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

    In Matthew 25:46, like 2 Cor.12:7, is another New Testament instance of Divinely given sufferings, usually translated "punishment" (κόλασιν) (v.46) of "fire" (v.41). Shall it not also be, as the Divinely given sufferings of 2 Cor.12:7, for the good of the recipients?


    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
  18. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Part of it is that God does inflict judgement upon those he deems worthy of it which can result in them suffering in some instances. However in Job, this was not such a case.
     
  19. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    κολασις κολασμός Hp.Praec.5, Pl.Ap.26a, al., Th.1.41; opp. τιμωρία, Arist.Rh.1369b13; of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46 penalize, fine
    κολάζω (twice in GNT, Acts 4:21; II Pet. 2:9)
    κολάσομαι, Future Middle
    κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (noun): "a correction, chastisement, punishment, penalty, torment"
    CYCLOPEDIA OF BIBLICAL, THEOLOGICAL, AND ECCLESIASTICAL LITERATURE.
    PREPARED BY THE REV. JOHN M'CLINTOCK, D.D., AND Dr. JAMES STRONG, S.T.D
    .

    Matthew 10:28 And be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but fear rather him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Fear him - It is, not hell-fire we are to fear, but it is God; without the stroke of whose justice hell itself would be no punishment, and whose frown would render heaven itself insupportable. What strange blindness is it to expose our souls to endless ruin, which should enjoy God eternally; and to save and pamper the body, by which we enjoy nothing but the creatures, and them only for a moment! [CLARKE]

    Matthew 23:33 Serpents, offspring of vipers, how should ye escape the judgment of hell? the everlasting vengeance and wrath of God, the unquenchable fire prepared for the devil and his angels, and which impenitent unbelieving sinners cannot escape,
    (p) T. Bab. Berncot, fol. 61. 1. Erubin, fol. 18. 2. Yebamot, fol. 102. 2. Sota, fol. 4. 2. & 5. 1. & Bava Bathra, fol. 10. 1. (q) Bemidbar Rabba, fol. 203. 1. Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 14. 2. & Midrash Kohelet, fol. 76. 1. [GILL]

    Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaks. For if those did not escape who had refused him who uttered the oracles on earth, much more we who turn away from him who does so from heaven:

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens.

    Matthew 7:23 and then will I avow unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, workers of lawlessness.

    Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Heb 6:8 but bringing forth thorns and briars, it is found worthless and nigh to a curse, whose end is to be burned.
    shall not see life; eternal life; he shall not enter into it, and enjoy it; he shall die the second death [BARNES]
    Luke 13:28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves cast out.

    Joh 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him. Shall not see life - Shall neither enjoy true life or happiness here nor in the world to come. Shall never enter heaven. [BARNES] shall not see life; eternal life; he shall not enter into it, and enjoy it; he shall die the second death. Very remarkable are the following words of the Jews (b) concerning the Messiah, whom they call the latter Redeemer: [GILL]

    1 Jonn 5:12 He that has the Son has life: he that has not the Son of God has not life.
    Revelation 20:15 And if any one was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 21:27 And nothing common, nor that maketh an abomination and a lie, shall at all enter into it; but those only who are written in the book of life of the Lamb.
     
  20. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    that is because he will not be and never has been. The King of Tyre was anointed by God?[/quote] anointed does not mean by God
    So you think Peter is satan?

    Mat_16:23  But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
    Perhaps you are wrong?
    If they are created beings then they are subject to death as all sinners are. How do you account for the fact that according to you, have lived 6000 plus years when only God has immortality?
    It would be my guess that you do not know much about the Bible and especially about the parable of Job. You do know that a parable is a story made up and not something real?

    Job_27:1  Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,

    Job_29:1  Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,



    You are making assumptions that are not supported by scripture. It says the adversary came among the Sons of God. Why do you think the adversary was not one of the Sons of God?
    Blasphemy
     
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