If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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FineLinen

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Dear Johnny: I am going to give you a new word today. You may know that the koine for the radical "all" is pas. The radical pas is eclipsed by ta pante.

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..."

This is the deal:every knee bows, every tongue confesses in willing worship "You are Lord." This worship is not by perfunctory genuflections, but willing worship by every being, in every dimension of the heavens, the earth and the underworld! Every last one!
 
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Chinchilla

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Chinchilla

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What if it was just endless conscious discomfort, like bad cramping? Would that make it better?

Yah wouldn't bother giving them resurrected body if he didn't want them to feel pain .
Current people in Hell are waiting bodyless for Day of Judgement and Lake of Fire it's not even punishment yet .
 
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Shempster

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Interesting thread. Been watching it a while now, and it seems to me that the real question here is about the nature of God.
Is he a harsh taskmaster who has a list of things he hates, then create man who is prone to do those very things and then inflict painful punishments on them so that he feels satisfied?

or...

Is his nature and character LOVE? In that he tests and trains his people in his ways and lets them suffer consequences for the purpose of becoming like him?
And would he continue to do so until every part of his creation will be brought into that light?

I guess we just have to choose the God that we like best.
 
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FineLinen

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What if it was just endless conscious discomfort, like bad cramping? Would that make it better?

Dear Petros: I know not the doctrine of bad cramping. What I do know is what we are commanded to command and teach. If one single digit of His purposes falls short, His declared Will has not reached consummation! The chances of that are impossible!

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach."
 
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FineLinen

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Interesting thread. Been watching it a while now, and it seems to me that the real question here is about the nature of God.
Is he a harsh taskmaster who has a list of things he hates, then create man who is prone to do those very things and then inflict painful punishments on them so that he feels satisfied?

or...

Is his nature and character LOVE? In that he tests and trains his people in his ways and lets them suffer consequences for the purpose of becoming like him?
And would he continue to do so until every part of his creation will be brought into that light?

I guess we just have to choose the God that we like best.

Dear Shempster: Any god short of the Glorious One will not satisfy the longing of a groaning creation!

 
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FineLinen

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for many are called but few are chosen

Dear he-man: Do you know the Master performs miracles? Do you also know He loses nothing? Yup: morsels of leftover fish & leftover morsels of bread He refuses to be lost/wasted. Do you believe those morsels are more important to Him than the mass for whom He has appeared as the hilasmos of the holos?
 
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he-man

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Dear Petros: I know not the doctrine of bad cramping. What I do know is what we are commanded to command and teach. If one single digit of His purposes falls short, His declared Will has not reached consummation! The chances of that are impossible!

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach."
AMEN!
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, chiefly of those that believe.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
 
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Chinchilla

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Interesting thread. Been watching it a while now, and it seems to me that the real question here is about the nature of God.
Is he a harsh taskmaster who has a list of things he hates, then create man who is prone to do those very things and then inflict painful punishments on them so that he feels satisfied?

or...

Is his nature and character LOVE? In that he tests and trains his people in his ways and lets them suffer consequences for the purpose of becoming like him?
And would he continue to do so until every part of his creation will be brought into that light?

I guess we just have to choose the God that we like best.

He throw two guys alive into Scheol making earth under thier feet disappear so yes .


John 3:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Rev 12:9??
That is funny because what John says leaves out your devil theory because according to him it hadn't happened before the book was written! John says, 'things which must shortly come to pass and things which must be hereafter. '
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him Job 42:11

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge)

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil


David Joris (c. 1501–1556, Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Dr. John Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory.

Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them – that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of ‘orthodox’ theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart: The “Devil”, then, is a symbol of lust and an vivid hypostatization of idolatry in aggregate. This language cannot be reconciled with the orthodox position.’
Stephen Snobelen, ‘Lust, Pride, And Ambition: Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002

James 1:14  But every man is tested, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 
15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 
16  Do not err, my beloved brethren. 

What makes the Christians' message dangerous, Celsus writes, is not that they believe in one God, but that they deviate from monotheism in their "blasphernons" belief in the devil.


Paul, writing about twenty years before the evangelists, holds a still more traditionally Jewish perception that Satan acts as God's agent not to corrupt people but to test them; at one point he suggests that a Christian group "deliver to Satan" one of its errant members, not in order to consign him to hell, but in the hope that he will repent and change.

The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive disρensation.


Satan / The Serpent / Dragon exists in The Old Testament and I already quoted to you the scriptures that prove it.
 
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FineLinen

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AMEN!
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, chiefly of those that believe.

Dear he-man: you will note>>>>>>>

"Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers. Command this and teach this."

Especially= malista

Only= monon/ monos

Note

1. God is the Saviour of all mankind.

2. He is not a potential Saviour.

3. He is [the] Saviour of all mankind.

4. He is not the Saviour of only those who believe/ trust in Him.

5. He is the Saviour "especially" of those who trust in Him.

6. Command this & teach this.
 
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he-man

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Satan / The Serpent / Dragon exists in The Old Testament and I already quoted to you the scriptures that prove it.
Don't you know the difference between past and FUTURE tense?
John says leaves out your devil theory because according to him it hadn't happened before the book was written! John says, 'things which must shortly come to pass and things which must be hereafter. '
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him Job 42:11

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge)
 
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he-man

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Dear he-man: you will note>>>>>>>

"Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers. Command this and teach this."

Especially= malista

Only= monon/ monos

Note

1. God is the Saviour of all mankind.

2. He is not a potential Saviour.

3. He is [the] Saviour of all mankind.

4. He is not the Saviour of only those who believe/ trust in Him.

5. He is the Saviour "especially" of those who trust in Him.

6. Command this & teach this.

1 Timothy 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is chiefly the Saviour of all men,


John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

of those that believe.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Don't you know the difference between past and FUTURE tense?
John says leaves out your devil theory because according to him it hadn't happened before the book was written! John says, 'things which must shortly come to pass and things which must be hereafter. '
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him Job 42:11

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge)


He’s all the same being described in both the new and Old Testament.
 
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FineLinen

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1 Timothy 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is chiefly the Saviour of all men,

Dear he-man: I fear you have twisted the Canon again! Our God is the Saviour of all mankind. ALL! But wait, our God is the Saviour especially of those who believe/trust in Him. You will note: He is not Saviour of only those who believe! What part of monon do you not grasp?

"Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers. Command this and teach this."

Note

1. God is the Saviour of all mankind.

2. He is not a potential Saviour.

3. He is [the] Saviour of all mankind.

4. He is not the Saviour of only those who believe/ trust in Him.

5. He is the Saviour "especially" of those who trust in Him.

6. Command this & teach this.
 
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