"If a man will not work, he will not eat..."

iluvatar5150

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...or maybe he will 2 Thessalonians 3:10 Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) sounds the alarm
Mike Rowe is a corporate shill who masquerades as a friend of the worker. If he was the pro-worker advocate that he pretended to be, he'd be more honest about the wages and working conditions of those "dirty jobs." They're typically very physical and leave the workers in rough shape after a couple decades. The pay is often low, especially when the workers aren't unionized; benefits can be thin; schedules are inflexible; and the work cultures are often unprofessional and off-putting to anybody not interested in acting like "one of the guys." Contrary to the video's assertion, an average of $31.44 across the entire manufacturing industry is not especially good pay and could go quite a ways towards explaining why it's not attractive.

I'd also point out that many of these firms may just be bad at recruiting.

Empire Metal in Queens? No jobs listed:
Their Facebook page hasn't been updated in 2.5 years and their Linkedin link is broken.

Electro Soft in Philly? They don't list any specific jobs, either. All they have is a generic application form on their web site that says nothing about training.

I absolutely agree with his message that these workers deserve more dignity and respect than they've been afforded, but what he neglects to mention is that it's often the jobs themselves that rob them of that dignity and, in doing so, confirm all of negative attitudes people have about them.
 
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Pommer

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...or maybe he will 2 Thessalonians 3:10 Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) sounds the alarm
This reminds me of a Benny Hill routine:
Straight-man (old comedic meaning): “Why don’t you work?”
Benny: “Why would I want to?”
S-m: “You could work your way up to the very top and out perform all the others and become rich!”
Benny:”Why would I want to be rich!?”
S-m: “So that you can retire and not work!”
Benny: “I’m not working now!”
 
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iluvatar5150

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What corporation does he "shill" for?
He's been a pitch man for a number of companies including Ford, Caterpillar, Kimberly Clark, and Discovery. More broadly, he pushes a pro-corporate perspective and between his shows and his foundation, he's been funded by the Kochs, Federal Mogul Motor Parts / Carl Ichan, Universal Technical Institutes, Distribution Contractors Association, Clockwork Home Services, American Petroleum Institute, and the Distribution Contractors Association. He's pretty open about his show Six Degrees being funded by the oil and gas industries.
 
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Blade

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Interesting for sure. I was not doubting the story just wanted to find out more. I did find a story about men work force that used the same exact wording back in 2016 "age — between 25 and 54 years old."

The bible if man (man or woman) will not work its written "unwilling to work". Some sites love to report how jobs are every where yet all around us job lay offs. My wife's work 10% where my son works they laid off hundreds him included then we have seen big tech and Amazon on and on.

Praise God for sending His son for God loves you so much died for you so you might have life..
 
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iluvatar5150

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Interesting for sure. I was not doubting the story just wanted to find out more.

On the surface, his message seems like a pretty good one and even though I'm not a fan of his overall (anymore), there are parts of his message that I do still endorse.

It's more of a thing where, if you look at his entire body of work and see what sorts of things he emphasizes, and what things he doesn't emphasize, it becomes clear that he's not really advocating for the worker. Rather, he encourages workers to do the bidding of management and basically ignores the pro-worker issues (e.g. safety, working conditions) that run counter to the interests of management.


I did find a story about men work force that used the same exact wording back in 2016 "age — between 25 and 54 years old."

That's referred to as "prime working age" and is a commonly-user filter when analyzing employment trends, because it avoids a lot of the distortions caused by folks in college or retired.
 
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RoBo1988

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He's been a pitch man for a number of companies including Ford, Caterpillar, Kimberly Clark, and Discovery. More broadly, he pushes a pro-corporate perspective and between his shows and his foundation, he's been funded by the Kochs, Federal Mogul Motor Parts / Carl Ichan, Universal Technical Institutes, Distribution Contractors Association, Clockwork Home Services, American Petroleum Institute, and the Distribution Contractors Association. He's pretty open about his show Six Degrees being funded by the oil and gas industries.
I think he actually worked for Discovery (Dirty Jobs, narrator for Deadliest Catch)
MSNBC Television host Lawrence O'Donnell kinda changed his mind about those evil Koch Bros:
Rowe also has a scholarship for those pursuing the skilled trades, that are ignored in school these days. mikeroweWORKS Foundation
I admit I have a little bias, because I have worked 43 years in skilled trades (Machinist, Tool & Die)
The bible if man (man or woman) will not work its written "unwilling to work"
The original text for the 'Green New Deal' provided for those unwilling to work
 
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iluvatar5150

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I think he actually worked for Discovery (Dirty Jobs, narrator for Deadliest Catch)
MSNBC Television host Lawrence O'Donnell kinda changed his mind about those evil Koch Bros:
Rowe also has a scholarship for those pursuing the skilled trades, that are ignored in school these days. mikeroweWORKS Foundation
I admit I have a little bias, because I have worked 43 years in skilled trades (Machinist, Tool & Die)

The original text for the 'Green New Deal' provided for those unwilling to work
I’m familiar with the Koch’s. They funded Nova when I was a kid and their name is on the wall at Lincoln Center. I didn’t say they were pure evil. But they have lobbied extensively for, among other things, a pro-corporate form of libertarianism.
 
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Pommer

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I’m familiar with the Koch’s. They funded Nova when I was a kid and their name is on the wall at Lincoln Center. I didn’t say they were pure evil. But they have lobbied extensively for, among other things, a pro-corporate form of libertarianism.
I’ve always thought them rather Randian. (Which one will get the Gary Cooper treatment?)
 
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rjs330

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It's one thing to not choose the trades cause you don't want to do them. It's another entirely to eschew work completely. If these guys are working other jobs then I've got no issue with that. If they are getting paid not to work that's another problem entirely.
 
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rjs330

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absolutely agree with his message that these workers deserve more dignity and respect than they've been afforded, but what he neglects to mention is that it's often the jobs themselves that rob them of that dignity and, in doing so, confirm all of negative attitudes people have about them.
This is absolutely a first world entitlement and privilege problem. That first of all that you could choose not to work and still be able to survive and second to consider any job beneath you. All work has value and dignity. If you are a man. Real men will work instead of not and being dependant on others. I'm afraid we have made boys instead of men.
 
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iluvatar5150

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This is absolutely a first world entitlement and privilege problem. That first of all that you could choose not to work and still be able to survive and second to consider any job beneath you. All work has value and dignity. If you are a man. Real men will work instead of not and being dependant on others. I'm afraid we have made boys instead of men.
In the passage you quoted, I wasn’t referring to or defending the choice to not work at all. I was referring to the perception of certain types of jobs as being of low status, undignified, “bad jobs,” etc that disincentivize people from pursuing them. My point was that those perceptions are, in many cases, fueled by realities of the jobs and the working environments. If those jobs are going to be perceived as more dignified, the folks who run those businesses have to step up and professionalize things.
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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We really can't say the reasons why these men are taking time off. Bad pay, disability for a while or Unemployment. Who knows. But the welfare office in CA, don't give welfare to people, that aren't working. Unless they are parents. They give general relief Under $300 a month. But you need to put in a bunch of work application in . Also they said you have to pay it back. Medical and food stamps. But, After a while, they call you to train.
 
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RoBo1988

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It's one thing to not choose the trades cause you don't want to do them. It's another entirely to eschew work completely. If these guys are working other jobs then I've got no issue with that. If they are getting paid not to work that's another problem entirely.
Many skilled trades have changed over the years due to new technology. In my trade in my younger days you would start out as a bench helper/apprentice for a senior toolmaker. I haven't seen where that is the case today. Precision machining is now done on CNC (Computer Numerically Controlled) Machines, as well as 3D printing, which is still coming along, so it's not as labor intensive as it was in the olden days. We have 3D modeling software to use, and 2D drafting software. Most manufacturers at one time had a Toolroom , or Model Shop- not the case anymore. They usually farm that work out.

The area I live in was a hot bed of automotive, as well as many other industries. The pull tab for drink cans was first developed here, and molds for 2 liter bottles. The first barcode reader was developed, and used in a grocery store about 30 miles north of me(it's in the Smithsonian today) NCR, National Cash Register, at one time employed 18,000 machinists, and toolmakers. When the cash register went computerized, many of those went off to start, and or work for local, smaller shops.

I was part of an apprenticeship program sponsored by a group of machine manufacturers, back in the late 70's It was not a instant "make big money" type deal-I started out at $.25 above minimum wage. But over time, if you have experience, you can take that anywhere.
 
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RoBo1988

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I was referring to the perception of certain types of jobs as being of low status, undignified, “bad jobs,” etc that disincentivize people from pursuing them.
It seems that these days the only "dignified" job is a You Tube star, or an Instagram "influencer", or working for the federal government; parlaying that, of course into being a cable news channel host.
 
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rjs330

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We really can't say the reasons why these men are taking time off. Bad pay, disability for a while or Unemployment. Who knows. But the welfare office in CA, don't give welfare to people, that aren't working. Unless they are parents. They give general relief Under $300 a month. But you need to put in a bunch of work application in . Also they said you have to pay it back. Medical and food stamps. But, After a while, they call you to train.

Welfare fraud is 15% of the welfare payouts. In California 10% of payouts is fraudulent. I'm sure it's higher than that, but people know how to work the system to keep it coming.
 
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Pommer

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Welfare fraud is 15% of the welfare payouts. In California 10% of payouts is fraudulent. I'm sure it's higher than that, but people know how to work the system to keep it coming.
Odd that you have the “welfare fraud” statistic handy, pray, what’s the “military-spending, cost-overruns” fraud come to?
 
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iluvatar5150

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Welfare fraud is 15% of the welfare payouts.
Source?

The only one I can find that claims it's that high is Welfare Fraud which is just some guy's blog. It doesn't look like his information is bad, per se, but he doesn't include all of the sources of welfare that some other sources do - notably, Social Security, which is huge while having a very low rate of improper payments. Just adding social security to his table would nearly halve the rate of "fraud."

Speaking of which, it's not "fraud" - it's "fraud and improper payments." "Improper payments" include mistakes and cases where reviewers have insufficient paperwork to determine whether or not a payment was appropriate.

You'll notice that the lion's share (70% or $113 billion out of $160.9 billion) of his "fraud" comes from Medicaid. From CMS.gov:
  • Improper payments represent payments that do not meet program requirements.
  • The vast majority of improper payments occur in situations where there was an unintentional payment error or a reviewer cannot determine if a payment was proper due to insufficient payment documentation from a state, provider, or the Exchange.
  • Improper payments do not necessarily represent expenditures that should not have occurred and can include both overpayments and underpayments where there is insufficient documentation to determine if a payment is proper in accordance with program payment requirements.
  • While fraud and abuse are improper payments, not all improper payments represent fraud. Improper payment estimates are not fraud rate estimates.

That's not somebody scamming the system and not something that can be prevented by paternalistic administrative burdens placed on benefit recipients. If just half of the Medicaid overpayments were non-fraudulent errors or just unverifiable, then his "fraud" rate would drop below 10%. Most figures I've been able to find put the rate of actual fraud closer to 5%.
 
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