Icons and indulgences

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LouisBooth

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"The Reformers decided to cut one of their own legs off and threw Tradition away, but that does not negate the veracity of it. "

Not really, they just don't see it as divine. Luther did not say, the tradition was crap, he DID say that it was not the proper judge of theology. He did "like" what the tradition said and even adhearded to most of it.

"More schoolin' is required fer you, son"

Hey, I knew it, just couldn't remember it, but that wouldn't get me help on a test huh? :lol:

"The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854, and Papal infallibility was defined by Vatican Council I in 1870"

Actually according to what i have read this ablitity of the popes was not adhearded or recognized by the church until AFTER the council at which ya'll say things happen infaultablity. By catholic definations he was speaking in ex cathedra BEFORE it could be done.

"Papal infallibility is mentioned as far back as Cyprian of Carthage in 252 A.D., "

Not addressed specifically was it? If so then we need to update some beliefs that have been said by popes in the past :)

"So both the Immaculate Conception and Papal infallibility pre-date the 19th century"

Yes but these definations were made AFTER the fact. I just see it as catholics saying something THEN going and finding it in the bible or tradtion to support what they have already said. That's not right...well to me. :)

"when both dogmas were defined, by around 1,800 years, give or take. "

The immacultate conception I would agree, not with popal infaultability. I think it was done after the fact. Just like the roman popes claim that he was the more equal of all the popes.

"Read the Didache for reasons why the procedure might differ. (It had to do with the availability of water.)"

Ah..so you do agree they have changed ;)

"Oh, yes I can. Were there seven sacraments originally? You tell me:"

Oh, using verses of the bible I can come up with a few more then that. If that's what we are going to do :)

"Procedures might differ as indicated above, but Tradition itself does not change. "

Prodedures are the tradition. Just as you believe in real presence it all has to do with HOW it is done. It is not present until AFTER it has been blessed..ie procedure. RIGHT?
 
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Wolseley

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(Wols shrugs shoulders, shakes head)

Whatever.

As in so many times during the past in these debates, we have come to the proverbial brick wall, where it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference what kind of evidence is provided, be it scriptural, historical, or other, to illustrate where these doctrines came from---if somebody has made their mind up that they ain't gonna believe it, then they ain't gonna believe it, and that's the end of it.

Recognizing the futility of further exchange at this point, I believe you were going left, while my path lies to the right; our paths diverge, and we agree to disagree, and leave it at that. Happy trails.

So, how about those Dodgers, huh? Think they have a shot at the Series next year?

Abeo,
---Wols.
 
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LouisBooth

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"be it scriptural, historical, or other, to illustrate where these doctrines came from---if somebody has made their mind up that they ain't gonna believe it, then they ain't gonna believe it, and that's the end of it"

Well, I don't believe you showed evidence that these are the only ones, I'll put it to you that way.

well brick wall yup, looks that way :) on to the next subject? I'm off to study the bible and history more...
 
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Someone in this thread said, "First of all, Purgatory. Catholics believe that Christ redeemed all mankind from all sins. However, you will still commit sins until you die. You are saved, but you still bear your sinful nature, and while you are saved from your sins, you still have to be cleansed of the lingering effect of them. "


Surely sins have no "lingering effect" if Jesus forgives them. You are contradicting yourself. No wonder this concept is so misunderstood.
 
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Wolseley

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That someone was me.

The sin is forgiven. But the lingering effect is the effect the sin has on the soul; the stain which is added to the sinful nature that you bear, which cannot come into the Presence of God.

That has to be cleansed before you you may see God. And Purgatory is the last part of Christ's work of forgiving your sins, to get that taken care of. It's a process, not an instantaneous event.
 
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seebs

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I don't agree. Let's say that my wife tries to get me something clever for Christmas, and *totally* botches; she tried really hard, but what she got me was *awful*; something I can't even pretend to like plausibly, we just have to take it back. Of course, I know she loves me, and I know she wants me to be happy.

But next year, don't you think she'll be a bit nervous about buying me a present?

There *are* lingering effects on me of the things I do, forgiven or otherwise.

I think you're acting under the mistaken impression that purgatory is purely a deterrent, as though God just wants to punish us for having been human. It ain't so. If there's a purgatory, it's not because God is punishing us, but because *we ourselves* have qualities which require this.
 
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