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In another thread, Louis and Angel asked some questions about these two subjects; I'll try to answer them as well as I can.
Icons have always been more of the norm in the Byzantine and Orthodox churches than in the Roman churches (where the norm usually runs to statues), but you will find them in Catholic churches as well. The concept is that you may pay reverence to an image (icon, painting, crucifix, statue), but that the reverence is payed to the person represented, and NOT to the image itself. The image is merely there to remind you of the person represented.
It's sort of like being away from home and your loved ones, and all you have are wallet photos of your spouse or family. You may take out the photos and look at them; you may even talk to them or even kiss them. Is all that directed at the photo, this piece of paper from Kodak? Of course not. It's directed towards the person who is represented on the photo. Same sort of thing. The photo in your wallet is a picture of your mother, wife, child, etc.; the statue or icon in church is a picture of Jesus, Mary, Saint Bernard, etc.
During the 8th century, there were a number of groups and Roman emperors who tried to wipe out icons, due to a legalistic and fundamentalist interpretation of the Scriptures; they failed in the attempt, and their ideas were declared heretical by the Church at the 2nd Council of Nicaea in 787.
Indulgences are a very misunderstood concept by non-Catholics. They are involved with Purgatory, but you can't "buy someone's salvation" with indulgences, by any means. Some background is necessary here; keep in mind that I am explaining the Catholic concepts of this doctrine---you don't have to believe it, or even agree with it. You are free to even consider it so much hogwash, if you like. But you should at least understand what it is that you're disagreeing with, instead of the misconception or the myth.
First of all, Purgatory. Catholics believe that Christ redeemed all mankind from all sins. However, you will still commit sins until you die. You are saved, but you still bear your sinful nature, and while you are saved from your sins, you still have to be cleansed of the lingering effect of them. This is what Purgatory is all about. You are "purged" of the lingering effects of sins and your sinful nature, and you then go on to Heaven. It's sort of like smashing a window with a baseball. You might tell Dad you're sorry, and he might forgive you, but you still have to forfeit your allowance for the next two months to pay for the window. For a more lengthy examination of Purgatory, there are several threads in the back pages of this forum which go into it in greater detail---I would encourage anyone who's interested to go and read them.
Okay. So now we come to indulgences. What is an indulgence, and what does it do?
An indulgence is a partial or a complete remission of temporal punishment (i.e., time in Purgatory) which you have incurred because of your sin. The idea is that good works can be accumulated in the spiritual sense (see Matt. 6:19-21). these "stored-up good works" can be applied to either yourself or to someone in Purgatory. They cannot be applied to anyone who is alive---someone who is still living can perform his own good works. The good work can merit an indulgence----i.e., if you perform some good work, you may merit some lessening of your temporary punishment in Purgatory. If you want to lessen your own possible time in Purgatory, you have to perform the good work with the intention of applying the spiritual effect of that good work to that specific purpose. If you specify that the effect goes towards someone else who is in Purgatory, the effect of the good work goes to what is called the "treasury of merit", a fancy term which means the storehouse of good works. These are then distributed by God to those in Purgatory who need them.
It is thought that a good portion of the good works stored up in the treasury of merit are those which were performed by Christ, the Virgin Mary, and the holy saints, as well as the ones performed by you and me. So the treasury contains a lot of good stuff, from Christ alone if not by anybody else.
The people who are in Purgatory are saved people---they are merely undergoing the final cleansing of their sinful nature; so doing something to help someone in Purgatory is not "buying the salvation of a dead person"---they're already saved, and you can't save anybody anyway, only God can do that. All you're doing is helping cut down on their temporary punishment, or the cleansing that they are undergoing.
Any good action is seen as gaining a certain amount of merit; and what this all basically boils down to is, the Church is trying to get people to do good things, rather than bad ones, just as Christ asked us to do. (And don't forget that Scripture repeats over and over again that we will be judged by our works, be they good or bad---cf. Rom. 2:2-8, 2 Cor. 5:10, 2 Cor. 11:15, Eph. 2:8-10, Col. 3:24-25 Jam. 2:14-24, 1 Pet. 1:17, and Rev. 20:12-13, among others.) Helping in the financial upkeep of the Church is considered a good and noble action, so that gains you some measure of merit. Which brings us to the "sale of indulgences" that sent Martin Luther over the edge, and quite rightly so.
At the period in question, the Pope was trying to get enough capital ahead to refurbish St. Peter's Basilica, and so he was offering indulgences for everyone who would contribute money to the cause. This was an abuse, and the Pope was wrong for putting this idea forward. Some of the actions around this practice were nothing short of a circus act---"Step right up, folks, free yer neighbors from Puragtory, hur-ry, hur-ry, hur-ry.....sixteen dollars will free sixteen souls....that's right, lady, put it right in there, step right up, son, put the money in the box, hur-ry, hur-ry, hur-ry....."----and so on. All of this was completely contrary to what the Church had always taught about indulgences, and Luther was miffed, as he should have been. (Some people even think that Luther was God's instrument to clean up the Catholic Church, since Luther's tanturms gave rise to the Council of Trent, which put a stop to all of these abuses.)
Anyway, that's a thumbnail sketch of indulgences, and the sale thereof, what they are and what they aren't. Again, nobody says you have to agree with all this; I have no doubt that now we'll have to go into the whole tired "faith vs. works" routine, and deal (again!) with the whole question of "Catholics try to buy their way into heaven" jazz, but I suppose that's the breaks when you go into these things.....I should be used to this by now and prepared for it. One misconception at a time.
So......questions?
Blessings,
---Wols.
I was wondering about icons...the views of the catholic church have varied on it. Why? I think the current conclusion is that they are okay becaue they are images that direct you to the real.
Icons have always been more of the norm in the Byzantine and Orthodox churches than in the Roman churches (where the norm usually runs to statues), but you will find them in Catholic churches as well. The concept is that you may pay reverence to an image (icon, painting, crucifix, statue), but that the reverence is payed to the person represented, and NOT to the image itself. The image is merely there to remind you of the person represented.
It's sort of like being away from home and your loved ones, and all you have are wallet photos of your spouse or family. You may take out the photos and look at them; you may even talk to them or even kiss them. Is all that directed at the photo, this piece of paper from Kodak? Of course not. It's directed towards the person who is represented on the photo. Same sort of thing. The photo in your wallet is a picture of your mother, wife, child, etc.; the statue or icon in church is a picture of Jesus, Mary, Saint Bernard, etc.
During the 8th century, there were a number of groups and Roman emperors who tried to wipe out icons, due to a legalistic and fundamentalist interpretation of the Scriptures; they failed in the attempt, and their ideas were declared heretical by the Church at the 2nd Council of Nicaea in 787.
Indugences would be another good one...It just strikes me as wierd that people can buy someone's salvation that is dead...
We were just talking a bit about that in my Chaucer class. In class it was said that they were sold to give someone a little less time in Purgatory. Is that true? Or is there more to it?
Indulgences are a very misunderstood concept by non-Catholics. They are involved with Purgatory, but you can't "buy someone's salvation" with indulgences, by any means. Some background is necessary here; keep in mind that I am explaining the Catholic concepts of this doctrine---you don't have to believe it, or even agree with it. You are free to even consider it so much hogwash, if you like. But you should at least understand what it is that you're disagreeing with, instead of the misconception or the myth.
First of all, Purgatory. Catholics believe that Christ redeemed all mankind from all sins. However, you will still commit sins until you die. You are saved, but you still bear your sinful nature, and while you are saved from your sins, you still have to be cleansed of the lingering effect of them. This is what Purgatory is all about. You are "purged" of the lingering effects of sins and your sinful nature, and you then go on to Heaven. It's sort of like smashing a window with a baseball. You might tell Dad you're sorry, and he might forgive you, but you still have to forfeit your allowance for the next two months to pay for the window. For a more lengthy examination of Purgatory, there are several threads in the back pages of this forum which go into it in greater detail---I would encourage anyone who's interested to go and read them.
Okay. So now we come to indulgences. What is an indulgence, and what does it do?
An indulgence is a partial or a complete remission of temporal punishment (i.e., time in Purgatory) which you have incurred because of your sin. The idea is that good works can be accumulated in the spiritual sense (see Matt. 6:19-21). these "stored-up good works" can be applied to either yourself or to someone in Purgatory. They cannot be applied to anyone who is alive---someone who is still living can perform his own good works. The good work can merit an indulgence----i.e., if you perform some good work, you may merit some lessening of your temporary punishment in Purgatory. If you want to lessen your own possible time in Purgatory, you have to perform the good work with the intention of applying the spiritual effect of that good work to that specific purpose. If you specify that the effect goes towards someone else who is in Purgatory, the effect of the good work goes to what is called the "treasury of merit", a fancy term which means the storehouse of good works. These are then distributed by God to those in Purgatory who need them.
It is thought that a good portion of the good works stored up in the treasury of merit are those which were performed by Christ, the Virgin Mary, and the holy saints, as well as the ones performed by you and me. So the treasury contains a lot of good stuff, from Christ alone if not by anybody else.
The people who are in Purgatory are saved people---they are merely undergoing the final cleansing of their sinful nature; so doing something to help someone in Purgatory is not "buying the salvation of a dead person"---they're already saved, and you can't save anybody anyway, only God can do that. All you're doing is helping cut down on their temporary punishment, or the cleansing that they are undergoing.
Any good action is seen as gaining a certain amount of merit; and what this all basically boils down to is, the Church is trying to get people to do good things, rather than bad ones, just as Christ asked us to do. (And don't forget that Scripture repeats over and over again that we will be judged by our works, be they good or bad---cf. Rom. 2:2-8, 2 Cor. 5:10, 2 Cor. 11:15, Eph. 2:8-10, Col. 3:24-25 Jam. 2:14-24, 1 Pet. 1:17, and Rev. 20:12-13, among others.) Helping in the financial upkeep of the Church is considered a good and noble action, so that gains you some measure of merit. Which brings us to the "sale of indulgences" that sent Martin Luther over the edge, and quite rightly so.
At the period in question, the Pope was trying to get enough capital ahead to refurbish St. Peter's Basilica, and so he was offering indulgences for everyone who would contribute money to the cause. This was an abuse, and the Pope was wrong for putting this idea forward. Some of the actions around this practice were nothing short of a circus act---"Step right up, folks, free yer neighbors from Puragtory, hur-ry, hur-ry, hur-ry.....sixteen dollars will free sixteen souls....that's right, lady, put it right in there, step right up, son, put the money in the box, hur-ry, hur-ry, hur-ry....."----and so on. All of this was completely contrary to what the Church had always taught about indulgences, and Luther was miffed, as he should have been. (Some people even think that Luther was God's instrument to clean up the Catholic Church, since Luther's tanturms gave rise to the Council of Trent, which put a stop to all of these abuses.)
Anyway, that's a thumbnail sketch of indulgences, and the sale thereof, what they are and what they aren't. Again, nobody says you have to agree with all this; I have no doubt that now we'll have to go into the whole tired "faith vs. works" routine, and deal (again!) with the whole question of "Catholics try to buy their way into heaven" jazz, but I suppose that's the breaks when you go into these things.....I should be used to this by now and prepared for it. One misconception at a time.
So......questions?
Blessings,
---Wols.