Iconography question?

[~Anastasia~]

I had someone ask about hand positions in icons.

Our stained glass St. Sophia with her children shows two of the daughters with different hand positions from the other. Can anyone tell me what it means, the upraised palm facing the viewer, like the "stop" position?

Thanks!

 

[ikonographics]

The raised hand is an adaption of the orans position of prayer where both hands are raised. Icons in the Catacobs often showed saints with both hands raised in prayer. It's a bit odd that Elpis doesn't have her hand in that position. Martyrs are usually depicted with the Cross in one hand and the other in the orans position. https://orthodoxwiki.org/Orans

 

[ArmyMatt]

The raised hand is an adaption of the orans position of prayer where both hands are raised. Icons in the Catacobs often showed saints with both hands raised in prayer. It's a bit odd that Elpis doesn't have her hand in that position. Martyrs are usually depicted with the Cross in one hand and the other in the orans position. https://orthodoxwiki.org/Orans

I remember learning that when we talked about sacred art in my Spirituality class.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The raised hand is an adaption of the orans position of prayer where both hands are raised. Icons in the Catacobs often showed saints with both hands raised in prayer. It's a bit odd that Elpis doesn't have her hand in that position. Martyrs are usually depicted with the Cross in one hand and the other in the orans position. https://orthodoxwiki.org/Orans

Thank you so much!!! I will post the info so the gentleman can receive it.

 

[ikonographics]

Thank you so much!!! I will post the info so the gentleman can receive it.

You're welcome

 

[FenderTL5]

You're welcome

(quoting so you will get notification).

What does this sword position indicate? It's upside down.
Secondly, do you see the minor error in this icon? When I saw it (it was pointed out) I literally laughed out loud.

 

[~Anastasia~]

(quoting so you will get notification).

What does this sword position indicate? It's upside down.
Secondly, do you see the minor error in this icon? When I saw it (it was pointed out) I literally laughed out loud.
View attachment 211494

Now you've got me wondering if the "error" I see is what you mean. Under the circumstances, I suppose it would be an error. I'm used to skimming over such things.

 

[prodromos]

I can't see any error

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think they accidentally used the Greek letter for "R" so it looks like Demetpios, rather than Demetrios

 

[prodromos]

I think they accidentally used the Greek letter for "R" so it looks like Demetpios, rather than Demetrios

That's the trouble with being bilingual. I just read it as "rho" by default.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's the trouble with being bilingual. I just read it as "rho" by default.

same here at first. plus the font didn't help

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yep that's the one I saw. Sometimes I see mixed fonts in icons, so I just "read" whatever language each letter is written in. I wouldn't say I'm bilingual. But I try to read Greek as well as English. Given that this particular icon had Greek text on one side and English on the other. I thought it could be considered an error to mix in a Greek letter with the English.

But normally I ignore such things since I see it regularly enough that the name is written once in some combination of Greek and English (makes it hard to sort out since we actually share so much of our alphabets).

 

[prodromos]

While living in Greece I kept coming across the word "PANTEBOY" everywhere and thinking how ridiculous it sounded. It was a while before I realised it was the Greek spelling of "rendezvous"

 

[FenderTL5]

I think they accidentally used the Greek letter for "R" so it looks like Demetpios, rather than Demetrios

that is indeed the 'error' being referenced. The iconographers came over from Greece, so mixing a rho in place of the 'R' is understandable.

 

[FenderTL5]

..Given that this particular icon had Greek text on one side and English on the other. I thought it could be considered an error to mix in a Greek letter with the English..

this is beside the south deacon's door in our new iconography at church. The iconographers put the names in both Greek and English on all of the icons, which I thought was a nice touch.

 

[~Anastasia~]

this is beside the south deacon's door in our new iconography at church. The iconographers put the names in both Greek and English on all of the icons, which I thought was a nice touch.

Yes, I don't know anything about protocol there, but it is a nice touch. Seeing many icons identified only in Greek was one of my first motivations to learn to read in the Greek letters. Then imagine my disappointment at discovering I still can't read "Byzantine shorthand" as it was explained to me by a monastic iconographer. But in the end I can usually know who or what the icon depicts - just not always the proper spelling. I have run across one or two that still stumped me and I had to ask someone familiar with that "shorthand" to read it for me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

that is indeed the 'error' being referenced. The iconographers came over from Greece, so mixing a rho in place of the 'R' is understandable.

and I am no iconography expert, but to answer your question about the sword, I would say it being sheathed and upturned means he put up the sword as a soldier to follow Christ and the way of peace. but that's just a guess.

 

[ikonographics]

(quoting so you will get notification).

What does this sword position indicate? It's upside down.
Secondly, do you see the minor error in this icon? When I saw it (it was pointed out) I literally laughed out loud.
View attachment 211494

The upside sword means...he's holding his sword upside down, nothing more, nothing less. Icons are not full of hidden meanings. That is a Western concept of images that has nothing to do with the Patristic Orthodox understanding, but has unfortunately infiltrated Orthodoxy since the 20th century and is sadly considered the Orthodox "theology" of the icon. As for the mistake...I have the same problem as Prodromos, being bilingual I don't even notice it! LOL

 

[ArmyMatt]

The upside sword means...he's holding his sword upside down, nothing more, nothing less. Icons are not full of hidden meanings. That is a Western concept of images that has nothing to do with the Patristic Orthodox understanding, but has unfortunately infiltrated Orthodoxy since the 20th century and is sadly considered the Orthodox "theology" of the icon. As for the mistake...I have the same problem as Prodromos, being bilingual I don't even notice it! LOL

well, color me wrong. but in all seriousness thanks, we do sometimes go overboard in trying to make a theological point when there ain't one there.