Ibrahim stoned the Devil?

HumbleSiPilot77 · Dec 28, 2008

humblemuslim said:
You on the other hand have been have not even been making arguments.

So which one is it? Have been or have not been?

Your frustration is understandable. I am simply NOT following your argument style, I am not obeying your intended discussion flow and that drives you nuts. In return, you accuse me of the same things you commit, to the point of using same terminology. I am not your age nor I am in your maturity level. I am not quoting your work against you. You provided vague quotes from the Quran supposedly backing up your freedom-in-prayer point, yet you have not provided any info why billions of muslims are not following this reformed approach. You also now challenge the authority of sunnah, and dismiss the "islamic authority" as they are fallible men. If your authority is fallible, HOW COME YOU ARE NOT??? You DO NOT know or do not want to acknowledge the authority given to Muhammad. You speak of heretical things within your own ummah. The level of liberality you seek here DOES NOT exist in Islam, who are trying to fool? Where did Muhammad even mention daily prayer was a personal choice? I was raised in an Islamic community, I was 24 when I left Islam. Now it doesn't matter how long I have been a muslim, as there are 10 year-olds know more than 60 year-olds, but you need not disregard the experience. What is wrong with the 5 times a day deal? It is PRESCRIBED! It is mechanical. Many muslims are doing it because they believe they are earning God's favor. Maybe your Islamic sect doesn't follow sunnah, if so, I can not comment to that.

humblemuslim · Dec 28, 2008

Bushmaster,

If someone took an honest effort to look through your most recent posts what they would find themselves asking is "What point is he even trying to make?" Because the fact remains that most commonly you are not even making a point. You are instead raising new topics and flinging mud, as a figure of speech, instead.

You assume my position for me and tell me I am wrong before I have even had a chance to state my views as seen here:

Bushmaster said:
Oh yea? Show me the 5 times rule in the Quran? Does it tell you should pray 5 times a day, or you bring off context verses together to make the argument that there is 5 times praying in the Quran? Only 3 contact prayers are mentioned in the Quran. Excluding the made up bargaining with Allah story of Muhammad, reducing the number from 40 to 5.

Bushmaster said:
Then why do you follow the sunnah?

I did not claim these beliefs, you claimed them on my behalf. And I rejected them on my behalf.

Another common aspect to your posting style is that you pick at every word that is said, which is why you might notice that when I am making an argument I am becoming increasingly concise to give you less to work with. I suppose that is why you have began to make up beliefs on my behalf and assume my disposition. Your comments are conversational, not arguments. Much like this post. I am not arguing any point here, I am commenting on your behavior, which is conversational.

Now do as you commonly do and quote my post sentence by sentence citing some witty comeback to each and every line. And also I would like for you to misrepresent this post as an argument like you commonly do as well. Feel free to throw in an occasional insult to my intelligence, age, maturity, religion, and anything else irrelevant you might like to target.

As you have already stated regarding the actions of misguided people claiming to be followers of Islam, actions speak louder than words. And your insults are an action that speak very loudly of your religion. And even though I would not generalize Christians based on your actions, someone else might. Just think about that.

Beckyy25 · Dec 31, 2008

Hi humblemuslim

I'd like to know if you pray the 5 daily prayers or not.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Dec 31, 2008

humblemuslim said:
Bushmaster,

If someone took an honest effort to look through your most recent posts what they would find themselves asking is "What point is he even trying to make?" Because the fact remains that most commonly you are not even making a point. You are instead raising new topics and flinging mud, as a figure of speech, instead.

And you still avoid responding to my questions.

You assume my position for me and tell me I am wrong before I have even had a chance to state my views as seen here:

How similar to your behavior in some other threads.

I did not claim these beliefs, you claimed them on my behalf. And I rejected them on my behalf.

So you reject the common practices of Islamic tradition. Fine with me, I don't care what you claim to follow or how you like to distort the common knowledge. You are in the islamic ummah not me.

Another common aspect to your posting style is that you pick at every word that is said, which is why you might notice that when I am making an argument I am becoming increasingly concise to give you less to work with. I suppose that is why you have began to make up beliefs on my behalf and assume my disposition. Your comments are conversational, not arguments. Much like this post. I am not arguing any point here, I am commenting on your behavior, which is conversational.

However you may wish to describe your lack of response. The fact that you are cornered between the common practices of the Islamic ummah and your personal interpretation of the Quran speaks volumes if that someone took an honest effort to look through your runaround posts.

Now do as you commonly do and quote my post sentence by sentence citing some witty comeback to each and every line. And also I would like for you to misrepresent this post as an argument like you commonly do as well. Feel free to throw in an occasional insult to my intelligence, age, maturity, religion, and anything else irrelevant you might like to target.

Technically speaking, I don't belong to your religion, I am not in your age group, I am not on the same maturity level as you are, so your assumption that my remarks somehow are said to insult you is your issue. Cry me a river. Instead maybe you can answer the issue here, if Allah didn't prescribe a standard, then who makes the standard?

As you have already stated regarding the actions of misguided people claiming to be followers of Islam, actions speak louder than words. And your insults are an action that speak very loudly of your religion. And even though I would not generalize Christians based on your actions, someone else might. Just think about that.

Don't lay your lacking responses and humiliation on my faith and religion. My religion has nothing to do with you giving us the runaround as you have no answer. Now answer the question Becky repeated ....

SlaveOfGod · Dec 31, 2008

Bushmaster78FS said:
So which one is it? Have been or have not been?

Your frustration is understandable. I am simply NOT following your argument style, I am not obeying your intended discussion flow and that drives you nuts. In return, you accuse me of the same things you commit, to the point of using same terminology. I am not your age nor I am in your maturity level. I am not quoting your work against you. You provided vague quotes from the Quran supposedly backing up your freedom-in-prayer point, yet you have not provided any info why billions of muslims are not following this reformed approach. You also now challenge the authority of sunnah, and dismiss the "islamic authority" as they are fallible men. If your authority is fallible, HOW COME YOU ARE NOT??? You DO NOT know or do not want to acknowledge the authority given to Muhammad. You speak of heretical things within your own ummah. The level of liberality you seek here DOES NOT exist in Islam, who are trying to fool? Where did Muhammad even mention daily prayer was a personal choice? I was raised in an Islamic community, I was 24 when I left Islam. Now it doesn't matter how long I have been a muslim, as there are 10 year-olds know more than 60 year-olds, but you need not disregard the experience. What is wrong with the 5 times a day deal? It is PRESCRIBED! It is mechanical. Many muslims are doing it because they believe they are earning God's favor. Maybe your Islamic sect doesn't follow sunnah, if so, I can not comment to that.

Although we share totally different ideologies, I am with Bushmaster on most of this words here.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Dec 31, 2008

SlaveOfGod said:
Although we share totally different ideologies, I am with Bushmaster on most of this words here.

I don't think humblemuslim is being honest by avoiding the issue. The best judge of his argument would be his own ummah because he belongs to that circle. When I make remarks about Christian History, I check with sources, at times I may use opinions. But when I talk about doctrines of the Holy Orthodox Church, I can not use opinions as freely...

humblemuslim · Jan 2, 2009

Beckyy25 said:
Hi humblemuslim

I'd like to know if you pray the 5 daily prayers or not.

I do as a matter of personal choice. I am not one to state that this belief originates from the Qur'an or is strictly required. Prayer is for humanity's benefit (And other creations of God), it does not benefit the self-sufficient God of our universe.

humblemuslim · Jan 2, 2009

Bushmaster78FS said:
I don't think humblemuslim is being honest by avoiding the issue. The best judge of his argument would be his own ummah because he belongs to that circle. When I make remarks about Christian History, I check with sources, at times I may use opinions. But when I talk about doctrines of the Holy Orthodox Church, I can not use opinions as freely...

You are going to have to clearly state what issue you believe is being avoided. In the past, I have had to filter through your replies as best I can. So it is possible I overlooked a valid point.

Regarding my views being "free" from the self-proclaimed authorities of Islam. When I look at religious views expressed by anyone, whether they claim, or are seen to be, an authority or not, I read it with one question in mind : What support do they have for their claim? Authority does not equate to being right, accepting this would be an Appeal to Authority. In my views, God alone can declare someone to be a religious authority as God has done in the past. There are always humans willing to claim authority on God's behalf, but they do so falsely.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jan 2, 2009

Simple yes and no questions can be asked. Is Muhammad an authority, appointed by Allah? If so, does he have the authority to bring requirements of 5 times daily prayer to his ummah? And if so, did he bring this requirement? Also do you belong to his ummah? I don't think argumentum ad verecundiam applies here at all. Because that fallacy only applies when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. Muhammad is not?

humblemuslim · Jan 2, 2009

Bushmaster78FS said:
Simple yes and no questions can be asked. Is Muhammad an authority, appointed by Allah? If so, does he have the authority to bring requirements of 5 times daily prayer to his ummah? And if so, did he bring this requirement? Also do you belong to his ummah? I don't think argumentum ad verecundiam applies here at all. Because that fallacy only applies when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. Muhammad is not?

If the prophet and messenger from God was alive today then yes he would be an authority of our faith being a mediator between us and God. But he is not. We have texts that claim sayings and actions of the prophet. I am well aware that special care has been taken to weed out legitimate pieces. But who weeded them out? The prophet? No. God? No. So how then shall I accept any other Scripture or text other than that which God has revealed to us. To do so is to suggest that God's Scriptures are less than perfect and require introduction of more details. For me, if the details are not important enough to be found in the Qur'an, then they are not important enough to be obligatory.

Qur'an 6:114 said:
Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jan 2, 2009

humblemuslim said:
If the prophet and messenger from God was alive today then yes he would be an authority of our faith being a mediator between us and God. But he is not. We have texts that claim sayings and actions of the prophet. I am well aware that special care has been taken to weed out legitimate pieces. But who weeded them out? The prophet? No. God? No. So how then shall I accept any other Scripture or text other than that which God has revealed to us. To do so is to suggest that God's Scriptures are less than perfect and require introduction of more details. For me, if the details are not important enough to be found in the Qur'an, then they are not important enough to be obligatory.

Humble, do you seriously disregard Hadith and sunnah? I don't think muslims on this forum would agree with your stance. So unfortunately, I can't apply your ideas to the orthodox islamic teachings.

humblemuslim · Jan 2, 2009

Bushmaster78FS said:
Humble, do you seriously disregard Hadith and sunnah? I don't think muslims on this forum would agree with your stance. So unfortunately, I can't apply your ideas to the orthodox islamic teachings.

As a religious authoritative text to God's religion, yes I do disregard them. As a historical document, no I do not. Meaning I would not derive new beliefs from them (New in this context, meaning not found in the Qur'an). There are some cultural practices found in the hadith and sunnah that do not contradict the Qur'an and are fine. Although not contradicting, they are not obligatory. Religion is personal. Not all these small details are agreeable for everyone. Which is why I believe God did not put them in the Qur'an. Because these small details (Specific form of prayer, specific number of prayers, etc.) are not essential to achieving the intended purpose of the belief. I derive this belief (That small details are not important to God, but only to humans) from the Qur'an 2:67-71. The story of the cow where more details continue to be demanded until the humans are satisfied.

As an analog to further explain what I mean, consider a carpenter making a table. Let us say a chief carpenter, embued with authority over all carpenters, mandated that all tables be made exactly a certain way. The length of every piece of wood, the color of the wood, the density of the wood, and what have you. Every single detail you could imagine. So the carpenters go forth making these "cookie-cutter" tables whether they like it or not. But what is the purpose of the table? Tables are multifunctional. But let us focus on one function, that being to keep important items off the floor, where they can be stepped on or easily gotten to by pests. Given this function, carpenters would not be required to follow the "cookie-cutter" example to achieve the intended goal of a table. Yet, there are general guidelines that still need to be followed so they are making a table and not a chair or anything else.

When it comes to prayer, the general guidelines (The important details) are found in the Qur'an. The small details (Unimportant details) for the "cookie-cutter" prayer are found outside the Qur'an.

If other Muslims disagree with me, I am fine. I will not argue with a fellow believer over details that are not important to our salvation. The Qur'an makes it clear that belief in the One God and good deeds are the road to salvation. Not conforming to a specific prayer style and frequency.

Hopefully this makes my view point more clear.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jan 2, 2009

You are breaking a huge barrier towards reform in Islam that existed since after the prophet. Don't be surprised if you are greeted by hostility. This explains your take on things and no further explanation is required, at least for me. But I am sorry that other muslims are not commenting on this. And maybe that is fine, because it could quickly turn into a fight.

Rascaduanok · Jan 2, 2009

Try reading Aidid Safar’s Mental Bondage in the name of God. A bit too conspiratorial minded for my liking, but MASSIVELY and hugely filled with potential for the reform of Islâm. He does away with pagan worship (Hajj, Salah), and other far–reaching ideas too. For example, he takes the ‘Arabi word used for pig meat, and takes it back to its literal root of decaying or rotten, saying that god did not forbid the consumption of pig (a jewish practice) but of meat already dead (as in not killed for consumption).

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jan 2, 2009

That is radical. I don't think these guys would ever succeed though. You have too violent fractions within Islam.

peaceful soul · Jan 2, 2009

humblemuslim said:
As a religious authoritative text to God's religion, yes I do disregard them. As a historical document, no I do not. Meaning I would not derive new beliefs from them (New in this context, meaning not found in the Qur'an). There are some cultural practices found in the hadith and sunnah that do not contradict the Qur'an and are fine. Although not contradicting, they are not obligatory. Religion is personal. Not all these small details are agreeable for everyone. Which is why I believe God did not put them in the Qur'an. Because these small details (Specific form of prayer, specific number of prayers, etc.) are not essential to achieving the intended purpose of the belief. I derive this belief (That small details are not important to God, but only to humans) from the Qur'an 2:67-71. The story of the cow where more details continue to be demanded until the humans are satisfied.

As an analog to further explain what I mean, consider a carpenter making a table. Let us say a chief carpenter, embued with authority over all carpenters, mandated that all tables be made exactly a certain way. The length of every piece of wood, the color of the wood, the density of the wood, and what have you. Every single detail you could imagine. So the carpenters go forth making these "cookie-cutter" tables whether they like it or not. But what is the purpose of the table? Tables are multifunctional. But let us focus on one function, that being to keep important items off the floor, where they can be stepped on or easily gotten to by pests. Given this function, carpenters would not be required to follow the "cookie-cutter" example to achieve the intended goal of a table. Yet, there are general guidelines that still need to be followed so they are making a table and not a chair or anything else.

When it comes to prayer, the general guidelines (The important details) are found in the Qur'an. The small details (Unimportant details) for the "cookie-cutter" prayer are found outside the Qur'an.

If other Muslims disagree with me, I am fine. I will not argue with a fellow believer over details that are not important to our salvation. The Qur'an makes it clear that belief in the One God and good deeds are the road to salvation. Not conforming to a specific prayer style and frequency.

Hopefully this makes my view point more clear.

Humblemuslim, you are sounding more like a Christian than a Muslim. Christians are given leniency in how they live since the heart of the individual is what God looks at--not the external performance that Muslims boast about. Judging the heart is much different than the structured aspects of Islam where judging the flesh is more important. That is why all of those Shari laws look so attractive and are believed to be divinely ordained as some measuring stick for personal righteousness.

Although I disagree with your analysis of the requirement for 5 daily prayers, I do commend you for at least looking at your religion with more of an open approach. You at least have a far greater peripheral than the majority of Muslims. The bottom line for me is that I don't care what modern Muslims think and believe because the basis for Islam is what Mohammad said and did as your examples for all times, according to Islamic general teaching. If you don't follow Mohammad's actions and teachings, then I consider anyone not a true Muslim. The bad part of this is that Mohammad was not a perfect man and had many flaws that if practiced would cause a lot of strife and hideous acts as we see today in the so-called fanatical Muslims. Sometimes I wonder if they are really that fanatic when compared to some of the things Mohammad did in the name of Allah to promote his cause for Islam. As far as I or any other non Muslims should be concerned, anything that Mohammad did is open to be followed as an example. I don't see how you can say that one particular action is not to be practiced just because it is a negative and has to be confined to a specific context and then claim that all of the good ones are to be practiced regardless of context. I am just giving you my opinion; so, don't take offense at my portrayal of Mohammad. I don't want to change the flow of conversation.

humblemuslim · Jan 2, 2009

peaceful soul said:
I don't see how you can say that one particular action is not to be practiced just because it is a negative and has to be confined to a specific context and then claim that all of the good ones are to be practiced regardless of context.

I am unclear what you mean by this specific portion of your reply. Was this inquiry intended for me or Muslims in general?

peaceful soul · Jan 3, 2009

humblemuslim said:
I am unclear what you mean by this specific portion of your reply. Was this inquiry intended for me or Muslims in general?

I am speaking of how Muslims like to bury the bad aspects of Mohammad and limit them to a specific time and take all of the good ones and use them unbounded by context and time. For example, when Mohammad was ordered by Allah to fight and kill Jews until there were no more, Muslims are quick to say that that was only for that battle; but when we look at the good things, they never have a time limit. If Mohammad is to be followed, then we must take everything that he did and make it available to be emulated unless we can confine everything to a specific context. The question that I always ask is "Did Mohammad give the context or is this done by scholars at a later time?"

Beckyy25 · Jan 3, 2009

humblemuslim said:
I do as a matter of personal choice. I am not one to state that this belief originates from the Qur'an or is strictly required. Prayer is for humanity's benefit (And other creations of God), it does not benefit the self-sufficient God of our universe.

Thanks for your answer.

But something is not clear to me yet, you said in one of your previous posts the following:

humblemuslim said:
The Qur'an is the source of law revealed by God, which is where I seek guidance. And there is no compulsion in religion. So although other Muslims may disagree with my stance of Qur'an first, Sunnah second (With Skepticism),

I saw you explained already why you disregard the Sunnah. But if you say you are skeptical about it, then its only logical to conclude that you are also skeptical (or at least to a specific degree) about Prophet Muhammad and his actions and sayings which are recorded in the Sunnah.

humblemuslim said:
we all believe in the major and important points.

I would be interested to know what these major and important points you are talking about are?

humblemuslim said:
Additionally, neither of us has any right to force one another to follow or not follow any specific Sunnah. It is a personal choice.

And what are the criteria for knowing which Sunnah to follow and which one not? If it was just a personal choice, you would only follow the ones that suit you best, or lets say the ones which are easy for you to follow, while you would leave out the ones you do not like, e.g. the ones that cause inconveniences to you.

humblemuslim · Jan 3, 2009

Beckyy25 said:
Thanks for your answer.

But something is not clear to me yet, you said in one of your previous posts the following:

I saw you explained already why you disregard the Sunnah. But if you say you are skeptical about it, then its only logical to conclude that you are also skeptical (or at least to a specific degree) about Prophet Muhammad and his actions and sayings which are recorded in the Sunnah.

I would be interested to know what these major and important points you are talking about are?

And what are the criteria for knowing which Sunnah to follow and which one not? If it was just a personal choice, you would only follow the ones that suit you best, or lets say the ones which are easy for you to follow, while you would leave out the ones you do not like, e.g. the ones that cause inconveniences to you.

I am skeptical of the entire contents of the Hadith and Sunnah, the parts considered good and bad alike. As I have already stated: There are some cultural practices found in the hadith and sunnah that do not contradict the Qur'an and are fine. Although not contradicting, they are not obligatory. So it is a matter of choice if they lend more detail than the Qur'an speaks of. It can be considered as a specific example of application. But how am I to know if these texts speak truth with regard to the prophet's actions and sayings? I do not, because I did not know the prophet personally. Anything historial is questionable in my views, since historical documents are authored by man.

The major/important beliefs are the belief in One God (Strict Monotheism) and the performing of good deeds and refraining from evil in this life to achieve salvation. The Qur'an talks about this numerous times.

'If the Sunnah or Hadith does not contradict the Qur'an' is the critera I use. But following details found outside the Qur'an, not mentioned in the Qur'an itself, is still a matter of choice in following a specific example of application. From my point of view, the Qur'an is to be accepted in its entirety by Muslims. The Hadith/Sunnah are possible examples of how to apply the Qur'an's teachings. The Hadith/Sunnah are authored by historical man, not God. Thus they are not infallible and should not be considered as such.

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