I wish to apologize

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Nah. I'll just stick with what I've written in this thread so far. But thanks for all of that anyway.

Where is this original church found and why doesn't it include what EOs, OOs, Anglicans, Lutherans, Reform, Wesleyans, and RCs believe as well as their history?

 

[The Liturgist]

Personally, I think it'd be more productive to search for a conceptually simpler, more primitive "Christianity" rather than seek to find a synthesis between Lutheranism, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicsim.

That sounds nice, superficially, but such an ideal church suffers from the not inconsiderable problem that it doesn’t actually exist. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church still exists, but a series of unfortunate schisms have resulted in division, so you have the four ancient churches (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East), some minor schisms from the Eastern churches (almost entirely in protest of ill-advised changes to the liturgy; these chiefly include the Russian Old Believers and the Greek, Romanian and other Old Calendarists), and resulting from a period of severe corruption in the Roman church lasting from the Great Schism until the admirable Counter Reformation under Pope Pius V, which started to become progressively worse in the late 13th century with the dreaded Inquisition and subsequently, the decadence of the Avignon Papacy and the Borgias, we saw the emergence of the Magisterial Protestants such as Luther, Cranmer and Calvin.

Of these three, the Lutherans and Anglicans in particular, as well as the Anglican-descended Methodists, and the liturgical Presbyterian adherents of what is known as Mercersburg Theology, who are sometimes called Scoto-Catholics, have done an admirable job, in my opinion, preserving the Apostolic faith. Interestingly, two of the earliest reformers, St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, who desired a restoration of vernacular liturgy and communion in both kinds, which had been lost when Austria conquered the Czech lands, and imposed the Roman Rite*, were the original founders of the second oldest Protestant denomination**, and the oldest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination, the Moravians, and are also venerated as saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia.

So, basically any of the churches whose members identify with the spirit of the Traditional Theology represent the authentic, ancient spirit of Christianity, albeit with one caveat - the Novus Ordo Missae that predominates in the Roman Catholic Church, and which is at risk of becoming even more predominant owing to Pope Francis effectively reversing the best of Pope Benedict XVI’s achievements, Summorum Pontificum, and abolishing the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei created by Pope John Paul II (whose sainthood along with that of Pius X I increasingly feel is justified, unlike that of Popes John XXIII and Paul VI), which was created to provide Roman Catholics with access to the traditional Latin Mass, in response to the rapid growth of the SSPX in the 1980s, is not usually a traditional worship experience, unless it is celebrated in a very specific way which is extremely rare (ad orientem - that is, the priest facing the altar together with the congregation where possible, with traditional music as instructed by St. Pius X , in a document still in force but which most dioceses and parishes in the US seem simply to ignore, traditional vestments, and the avoidance of Lay Eucharistic Ministers amidst other innovations.

That still leaves the three year lectionary, which is unprecedented in the history of Christianity (the Jerusalem Talmud, dating from the 8th or 9th century anno domini, featured a three year lectionary of Torah portions and corresponding Haftarah (lessons from other books in the Old Testament, or Tanakh), but this never caught on outside of Palestine, and today, the Babylonian Talmud with its one year lectionary is predominant even in Jerusalem (the evidence I have seen suggests the one year lectionary is closer to the original lectionary implemented in the Temple and the Synagogues by St. Esdras (Ezra) the High Priest under St. Nehemiah the Prophet, and its Torah and corresponding Haftarah lessons can still be found in the lectionary of the Assyrian Church of the East, albeit reorganized to correspond with the Gospel and epistle lessons).

The same caveat regarding the Novus Ordo Missae also applies in large measure to Protestant liturgies revised after the Novus Ordo, which adopted its various features, like celebration versus populum (the pastor facing the congregation during Holy Communion), the three year Revised Common Lectionary, derived from the Novus Ordo Missae, the blaring modern praise and worship music, and other deformations. This does not apply to all recent service books in equal measure: the 1979 Book of Common Prayer can be served in a very traditional manner using Rite I or the traditional language variant, the Anglican Service Book (the use of that book, and other traditional language adaptations of the contemporary language parts of the book are expressly authorized by a rubric, and all of the existing BCP editions published by the Episcopal Church were released at the time of their release into the public domain - note this does not apply to the 2019 BCP issued by the ACNA, which I am not a fan of; the 2006 Lutheran Service Book is also very good.

If you really want an experience of church from antiquity, the least modified liturgical rites are the Mozarabic and the older form of the Carthusian Rite, but the former requires travel to Toledo, in Spain, not Ohio, and the latter requires a very difficult to obtain pilgrimage to a Carthusian chapterhouse (the Carthusian term for monastery), which is only offered in the context of discerning suitability for service as a lay brother or choir monk, and more specifically, one of the small number of chapterhouses still using the old rite. After that, the most ancient readily accessible liturgies are those of the Aramaic-using East Syriac Rite (used in the Assyrian Church of the East, Ancient Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholic Church, and the Syro Malabar Catholic Church), the Coptic Rite (used in the Coptic Orthodox and Coptic Catholic churches), the Aramaic-using West Syriac Rite, particularly as used by those Syriac Orthodox Churches in the Middle East (as the St. Thomas Christians in India historically used the East Syriac Rite until the 18th century), the Ethiopian Rite, as used in the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church and the Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox Church, and the Russian Old Rite (with priests; there is a ROCOR parish in Erie, Pennsylvania, the Church of the Nativity, which serves the traditional Russian liturgy.

After that, the traditional Byzantine Rite as found in Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches (the Georgian, Greek, Albanian, and some Bulgarian, Romanian, Serbian and Antiochian parishes have the oldest music, in the form of Georgian polyphony and Byzantine chant; I myself greatly prefer Georgian polyphony, and the newer polyphonic music in four part harmony that is now dominant in the Russian and Ukrainian churches, and which is also commonly heard elsewhere, even in the Greek churches thanks to the exquisite liturgical compositions of Tikey Zes and Michaelides, but Byzantine Chant, like Gregorian Chant, is older, although Georgian three part polyphony is equally ancient). The Ruthenian Greek Catholics and the Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox (sometimes called Russian Greek Orthodox Churches in the Orthodox Church of America; other parishes are in the American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Diocese under the Greek Orthodox Church) has a beautiful system of congregational singing called Prostopinije, which along with Russian Znamenny Chant, found in Russian Old Rite and Old Believer churches like the aforementioned Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA, are perhaps the oldest surviving systems of congregational singing.

Then there is the traditional Latin Mass and variations thereof, the most common being the Tridentine Mass, but there is also the Dominican mass, and several other variations specific to particular cities and religious orders, such as the Rites of Lyons and Braga, and the Carmelite, Norbertine and the aforementioned Dominican and Carthusian Rites. There is also the Ambrosian Rite, related to the Mozarabic Rite, but whereas the latter is only regularly served in a small side chapel in Toledo’s cathedral, the former is the predominant liturgy in the entire region of Milan, and features incredibly beautiful music, vestments and liturgical pageantry, especially the astonishing Rito di Nivola on the Feast of the Elevation of the Cross (September 14) in which some ministers and clergy ascend in a cloud-shaped gondola of Baroque (or perhaps Rococco) provenance to the reliquary high in the ceiling where one of the largest and most valuable fragments of the Holy Cross is kept.

For those who would scoff at liturgical pageantry, I would encourage them to read a history of the majestic worship in Constantinople before the Turks conquered it, and look at the ancient and beautiful worship surrounding Good Friday and Easter Sunday at the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, especially the Orthodox services, and likewise the Great Blessing of Waters in the River Jordan on the feast of the Baptism of our Lord (Epiphany, however, all Orthodox services in the Holy Land follow the Julian calendar, so this works out to be January 18th).

*after the subsequent Union of Brest-Litovsk and the Counter Reformation, this would not have happened, in that the Roman Catholic Church under the good leadership of bishops like Pope Pius V and Carlos Borromeo the bishop of Milan ceased to impose changes in liturgical rite, and instead developed the Eastern Catholic Churches, and by 1911 a full equivalence of rite was at least in theory and in the view of Pope Pius X the official position; one of the few good things to come out of Vatican II in my opinion was that this was finally delivered on, and the various changes to the Eastern Rite liturgies, which most liturgical scholars call Latinizations, but which I prefer to call Romanizations, as they represented the imposition of practices specifically from the Roman Rite, and were also applied to other Western Latin liturgical rites, like the Ambrosian Rite and the Dominican Rite, were mostly removed from the various Eastern Catholic liturgical rites, although unfortunately not from the other Western rites; indeed the Dominican Rite came very close to disappearing and there was a time when the Carmelite Rite was disused, and in Portugal, the traditional Rite of Braga is seriously endangered.

** The oldest Protestant denomination is the Vaudois, or Waldensians, which started as a group of unsanctioned friars similiar to the Lollards of England, around the same time, but they were much more successful, organizing into a church in Southeast France. In the 16th century, following the horrifying massacre of 15,000 Vaudois men, women and children in Piedmont, through which they had been promised safe passage, the surviving Vaudois settled in Switzerland and embraced Reformed Calvinist theology, and there is at least one Waldensian parish in the Presbyterian Church, USA. In Europe, the Vaudois returned to Italy and recently merged with the Methodists to create the largest Protestant church in Italy. However, anyone hoping for a primitive Protestant church is in for a disappointment, as the Waldensians are essentially a Reformed church along Continental European lines, which also now embraces Methodist as well as Calvinist positions, much like the United Church of Canada or the Uniting Church in Australia.

 

[The Liturgist]

Nah. I'll just stick with what I've written in this thread so far. But thanks for all of that anyway.

I don’t care what you chose to believe as I support freedom of religion; my goal is merely to provide historically accurate information for the benefit of @Thatgirloncfforums and other members.

Also are you aware you are posting in Traditional Theology, and have you read the SOP for this forum?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don’t care what you chose to believe as I support freedom of religion; my goal is merely to provide historically accurate information for the benefit of @Thatgirloncfforums and other members.

Also are you aware you are posting in Traditional Theology, and have you read the SOP for this forum?

Yes; and yes, especially this part of the SOP ...

Traditional Theology Forum Guidelines:

Those who post here in the Traditional Theology forum should show civility and mutual respect towards one another irrespective of jurisdiction or churchmanship. Enter into all discussions and debates demonstrating your respect and courtesy towards other posters through civil dialogue.

Do not state or imply that another poster who has identified himself or herself as traditional Christian, is not in reality truly a traditional Christian because of belief, practice, or their affiliation with any particular denomination. Discuss and debate specific topics from your own traditional theological viewpoint, allowing others to do likewise without fear of judgment and condemnation. Do not get sidetracked into debating whether or not another poster's beliefs are right or wrong according to your traditional theological background or viewpoint. When making a statement about traditional theological beliefs please consider prefacing your statement with "some traditional Christians believe" or "my tradition believes".

When discussing and debating some topics, please be aware that your personal beliefs may at times be challenged, criticized or questioned. Don't become defensive or personally offended. Posters themselves, however, are never to be personally flamed. Flaming is defined as an attack on another person's character, as opposed to their arguments or beliefs.

Likewise, do not "tell" others what their own church teaches and believes. It is encouraged to ask questions about those teachings and beliefs and as well be prepared to answer questions about your own.​

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Where is this original church found and why doesn't it include what EOs, OOs, Anglicans, Lutherans, Reform, Wesleyans, and RCs believe as well as their history?

It's found 'within' every Trinitarian Church ...

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

It's found 'within' every Trinitarian Church ...

Why is Trinitarianism the determining factor and are there any other factors?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Why is Trinitarianism the determining factor and are there any other factors?

Trinitarianism is a determining factor in that it affirms the Deity of Jesus the Messiah, and we have no reason to think that any group (or individual) who has flouted this idea has ever been in successive line with the Apostolic foundation and tradition that was provided through Jesus in the 1st Century and that we find affirmations of in our earliest 1st century apostolically related books and letters (such as those of the Apostle Paul).

Of course, more can be gently derived from this, with one source among many that informs my position being that of Andrew B. McGowan's book, Ancient Christian Worship (2014).

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I ask bc Trinitarianism is one aspect of Catholic (universal) tradition. That Christ is fully man is another.

Trinitarianism is a determining factor in that it affirms the Deity of Jesus the Messiah, and we have no reason to think that any group (or individual) who has flouted this idea has ever been in successive line with the Apostolic foundation and tradition that was provided through Jesus in the 1st Century and that we find affirmations of in our earliest 1st century apostolically related books and letters (such as those of the Apostle Paul).

Of course, more can be gently derived from this, with one source among many that informs my position is that of Andrew B. McGowan's book, Ancient Christian Worship (2014),

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I ask bc Trinitarianism is one aspect of Catholic (universal) tradition. That Christ is fully man is another.

Yes. You're right. Is this what you mean by "other factors"?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Yes. You're right. Is this what you mean by "other factors"?

Yes!

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes; and yes, especially this part of the SOP ...

Traditional Theology Forum Guidelines:

Those who post here in the Traditional Theology forum should show civility and mutual respect towards one another irrespective of jurisdiction or churchmanship. Enter into all discussions and debates demonstrating your respect and courtesy towards other posters through civil dialogue.

Do not state or imply that another poster who has identified himself or herself as traditional Christian, is not in reality truly a traditional Christian because of belief, practice, or their affiliation with any particular denomination. Discuss and debate specific topics from your own traditional theological viewpoint, allowing others to do likewise without fear of judgment and condemnation. Do not get sidetracked into debating whether or not another poster's beliefs are right or wrong according to your traditional theological background or viewpoint. When making a statement about traditional theological beliefs please consider prefacing your statement with "some traditional Christians believe" or "my tradition believes".

When discussing and debating some topics, please be aware that your personal beliefs may at times be challenged, criticized or questioned. Don't become defensive or personally offended. Posters themselves, however, are never to be personally flamed. Flaming is defined as an attack on another person's character, as opposed to their arguments or beliefs.

Likewise, do not "tell" others what their own church teaches and believes. It is encouraged to ask questions about those teachings and beliefs and as well be prepared to answer questions about your own.​

Just to be clear, all I asked is whether or not you had read the SOP. We have a lot of people who come in here without reading the SOP, and it has proven helpful to refer them to it. It is not a comment on your own theology or your post.

Trinitarianism is a determining factor in that it affirms the Deity of Jesus the Messiah, and we have no reason to think that any group (or individual) who has flouted this idea has ever been in successive line with the Apostolic foundation and tradition that was provided through Jesus in the 1st Century and that we find affirmations of in our earliest 1st century apostolically related books and letters (such as those of the Apostle Paul).

Of course, more can be gently derived from this, with one source among many that informs my position being that of Andrew B. McGowan's book, Ancient Christian Worship (2014).

I’m terribly sorry, I am just getting over Covid (I am vaccinated but immunosuppressed due to another medication, and despite thorough precautions caught the dreaded Omicron variant), and my mind is running on only seven cylinders - I am having trouble understanding this post. Could you do me a solid and explain for me what you meant in greater detail?

Cheers

 

[atpollard]

Regarding the universal jurisdiction of the Pope, I don't have an opinion.

The question of the “universal jurisdiction of the Pope” is what divides Rome from the rest of the “Orthodox” church.

 

[atpollard]

Like what if you don't mind me asking?

“Jesus loves me, this I know.
For the Bible tells me so.”

 

[The Liturgist]

The question of the “universal jurisdiction of the Pope” is what divides Rome from the rest of the “Orthodox” church.

Actually it is much more complicated than that. Indeed universal jurisdiction wasn’t even a thing in 1054 when the Pope excommunicated the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

The theological differences include, but are not limited to:

• A rejection of the filioque as a heresy
• A rejection of the doctrines of created grace and absolute divine simplicity
• The essence/energies distinction
• A lack of discrete religious orders in favor of independent monasteries with their own typikon (rule)
• The use of leavened bread in the Eucharist
• Much more importance given to Matins, Vespers, and the rest of the Divine Office, as well as supplemental services like the Moleben and Akathist.
• Communion in both kinds, which is mandatory in Orthodoxy
• Chrismation (confirmation) and first communion are given immediately after baptism, to infants and persons of all ages, in the Orthodox churches
• Orthodox priests can be married, but they must wed before ordination to subdeacon, and they and their bride must be in their first marriage, and cannot remarry, without resigning
• Almost all bishops are also monks, who rise from the humble status of a novice

Most of these also apply to the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches like the Melkite Catholics, Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, Ruthenian Greek Catholics and Ukrainian Greek Catholics, except the Byzantine Catholic churches are tolerant of the Roman church differing from these norms, whereas the Eastern Orthodox Church is not.

Much of this applies also to the Oriental Orthodox Church

 

[The Liturgist]

For instance, with a little study, or better yet, with a lot, we can definitely say that the traditions and conceptual vehicles of the Gospel in A.D. 43 weren't---couldn't have been---identical to what they were in A.D. 343 or even A.D. 1543.

Actually we really can’t. Indeed, the oldest liturgy still in use, the Alexandrian Rite Divine Liturgy, sometimes called the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, is still in use by the Coptic Orthodox Church as the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril, is attested to in the second century Strasbourg Papyrus, and also in the fourth century Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis, which is the oldest complete bishops’ service book. And we can also date the Liturgy of Addai and Mari used by the Assyrian Church of the East to the second century with reasonable certainty, and the Ethiopian Orthodox Anaphora of the Apostles is basically the third century Anaphora of Hippolytus, which was revived in the 1960s and 70s as Eucharistic Prayer II in the Novus Ordo Missae, Eucharistic Prayer B in the 1979 Episcopalian Book of Common Prayer, and many other service books from that general timeframe.

The Divine Liturgy of St. Basil (both EgBAS and ByzBAS, to use the Bradshaw and Johnson notation), and the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (CHR) can be traced at least to the fourth century, with the latter being a minor variant on the ancient liturgy of Antioch, the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles. We also have the Divine Liturgy of St. James (JAS) which remains the most beloved of the Syriac Orthodox liturgies, and which also is used fairly regularly on the Feast of St. James in the Eastern Orthodox Church (and is also the basis for the Armenian Orthodox Anaphora of St. Athanasius) which was historically thought to be quite ancient, although I myself am intrigued by recent scholarship suggesting it may actually be a derivative of the St. Basil liturgy.

Sources: Essays on Early Eastern Eucharistic Prayers (ed. Paul Bradshaw), Issues in Eucharistic Praying, East and West (ed. Maxwell Johnson), the Oxford History of Christian Worship, the Oxford Guide to the Book of Common Prayer, the Eucharistic Epiclesis, John H. McKenna, CM, The Eucharistic Liturgies by Bradshaw and Johnson, Eucharist by Louis Bouyer, and of course I also have Early Christian Worship by Andrew McGowan, and many others (I particularly like Prayer and Worship in Eastern Christianities, 5th through 11th Centuries).

 

[The Liturgist]

“Jesus loves me, this I know.
For the Bible tells me so.”

There is so much more beauty in Christianity than could ever be expressed by nursery rhymes, and that nursery rhyme further suffers from a preconception about the role of scripture, which ignores the vital function of the Church and the Sacred Mysteries. I mean, its a nice, sweet nursery rhyme for children, but it fails to address the beauty @Thatgirloncfforums has experienced and is seeking in Lutheranism and Orthodoxy.

In the Lutheran and Orthodox churches, one could say “Jesus loves me, because He gives me His precious body and blood as sustenance for my soul and body, as the medicine of immortality, and as the blood of the New Covenant, poured out for us and for many for the remission of sins.”

 

[klutedavid]

I have decided to stay but I will keep my theology questions here on the Traditional Theology forum. [Edit] I am trying to discern between Lutheranism, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. Sometimes that requires good natured investigation and push back on my part. [Edit]

It's not that I am in limbo about my faith. It's more that the issues which divide Orthodoxy, Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism are not mine. They fight over things I consider unnecessary. I believe Lutheranism to be a legitimate development of medieval Catholic theology, if only Lutheranism didn't dispense with some key Catholic points like intercession of the saints in total, although I understand the contextual reasons. Regarding the disagreements between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, I don't understand why a synthesis can't be formed on most things, since for example, Palamas and Aquinas are both saints in the Roman Catholic Church. Regarding the universal jurisdiction of the Pope, I don't have an opinion.

[Edit]

I accept your apology.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Just to be clear, all I asked is whether or not you had read the SOP. We have a lot of people who come in here without reading the SOP, and it has proven helpful to refer them to it. It is not a comment on your own theology or your post.




I’m terribly sorry, I am just getting over Covid (I am vaccinated but immunosuppressed due to another medication, and despite thorough precautions caught the dreaded Omicron variant), and my mind is running on only seven cylinders - I am having trouble understanding this post. Could you do me a solid and explain for me what you meant in greater detail?

Cheers

From what I see just above, it appears that you're doing just fine ... so, I'm sure you're not in need of my rather "superficial" assistance.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

In the Lutheran and Orthodox churches, one could say “Jesus loves me, because He gives me His precious body and blood as sustenance for my soul and body, as the medicine of immortality, and as the blood of the New Covenant, poured out for us and for many for the remission of sins.”

 

[The Liturgist]

From what I see just above, it appears that you're doing just fine ... so, I'm sure you're not in need of my rather "superficial" assistance.

I really am having difficulty understanding that post of yours, specifically, I can’t tell what you are trying to say about Trinitarian churches. Help me out here.