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I wish the fire were blazing already

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Colin, Aug 18, 2019.

  1. Colin

    Colin Senior Veteran

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    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic

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    This reminds me of the hymn
    "To Jesus' Heart All Burning".
     
  3. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Active Member Supporter

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  4. Colin

    Colin Senior Veteran

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    God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29)
     
  5. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    That was our homily today
     
  6. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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  7. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Active Member Supporter

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    Amen to that.
     
  8. lecatholicpilgrim

    lecatholicpilgrim Member

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    According to several commentaries (and as preached by my pastor in his homily), this fire is God's presence and love.
     
  9. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Active Member Supporter

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    Hmmm, not my understanding. Mostly "fire" is to do with judgement. It makes an interesting Bible study.
     
  10. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    Good question. I've always wondered that. Yesterday, I heard one priest's take on it, and it was good.

     
  11. lecatholicpilgrim

    lecatholicpilgrim Member

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    The difficulty with symbolism in the Scripture is that they can be interpreted in many different ways. The reason why the commentaries I consulted identify this "fire" with the presence and love of God is very probably linked to the person of the Holy Spirit Himself, who leads to the truth (and the truth divides, which makes sense from the verses following Luke 12:49). There's a difference between the use of "fire" in the OT and the NT:

    OT:
    Fire as presence: Gn 15:17, Ex 3:2, Ex 13:21, 14:24, Nm 14:14, Is 33:14
    Fire as judgment: Gn 19:24, Lv 10:2, Nm 11:1, Jer 5:15
    Fire as God's pleasure: Lv 9:24, Jdg 6:21

    In the NT, fire is associated with both the Holy Spirit (Mt 3:11, Lk 3:16, Acts 2:3) and judgment (Mt 5:22, 13:50, 18:8, Mk 9:48, Jude 7, Rev 19:20). Usually, when the word "fire" is used in the NT in association with "judgment," it is limited to hell. As such, interpreting the passage with the word "fire" as "judgment" would be similar to saying that Jesus wants to bring hell to earth. On the contrary, Jesus sees a really good thing that the Holy Spirit would descend after His death and resurrection, as He is presence and love of God, with the power to operate conversion in people's lives. Jesus looks forward to the coming of the Holy Spirit saying "it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convince the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment" (Jn 16:7-8). This judgment, He explains, is that "the ruler of this world is judged" (Jn 16:11).

    Thus, the purpose of this desire of Jesus is not to bring judgment unto condemnation, but His presence and love in the Holy Spirit for conversion, as His desire is the salvation of the world (Ez 33:11, Jn 3:16, 22:47).
     
  12. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Active Member Supporter

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    "Hell" is not the place of judgement. The final judgement is the Lake of fire. That is New Testament. Many people read the description of the Holy Spirit falling on the disciples as "fire". No. The manifestion looked like fire. That is not the same thing, any more than saying that the Holy Spirit is a dove. Our God is a consuming fire. You do not want to go there! Hebrews tells us that it is a terrifying thing, not something to enjoy.
     
  13. lecatholicpilgrim

    lecatholicpilgrim Member

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    I'm just wondering: where did you see that I said that the Holy Spirit falling on the disciples was as "fire?" "Hell" as different from the Lake of fire, that's a claim up to you to defend; I'm inclined to believe this is not according to the Catholic tradition. Finally, saying that God is a consuming fire (which is indeed an idea found in the Scripture) but also saying "you do not want to go there," seems a bit off. What is the purpose of relating to God and enjoying His presence forever, starting in the present?
     
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