I wish mainstream eschatology was represented equally in this forum

[Hazrus]

There seems to be too many "rapturists" (to coin a phrase) here!

To those who are lurking, I don't believe this is a majority view throughout the saints worldwide. In the USA, perhaps, but not the rest of the world.

 

[Inkfingers]

Not looking to start an argument...but how do proponents of "mainstream eschatology" view the 'rapture' verses ((1 Thessalonians 4:17) and (1 Corinthians 15:52))?

 

[victorinus]

There seems to be too many "rapturists" (to coin a phrase) here!

I have been studying the apocalypse for 20 years
-and-
I still don't know what a rapturist is

 

[LastSeven]

There seems to be too many "rapturists" (to coin a phrase) here!

To those who are lurking, I don't believe this is a majority view throughout the saints worldwide. In the USA, perhaps, but not the rest of the world.

You should've included a poll to see just what percentage of people here believe in a rapture prior to the last day resurrection. Not sure if you can add a poll after the fact, but that would be interesting to see.

 

[LastSeven]

Not looking to start an argument...but how do proponents of "mainstream eschatology" view the 'rapture' verses ((1 Thessalonians 4:17) and (1 Corinthians 15:52))?

I call it the resurrection, which happens on the last day. It just so happens that after we're resurrected we're also taken to the throne, and some people like to use the word "rapture" for that.

I don't use that word because it's misleading. The connotation that goes with that word is that the rapture happens only to believers (while the rest are "left behind") and it happens sometime prior to the last day, when in fact, all will be resurrected on the last day and all will stand before the throne of God on that day, not only the believers.

 

[Inkfingers]

I call it the resurrection, which happens on the last day. It just so happens that after we're resurrected we're also taken to the throne, and some people like to use the word "rapture" for that.

I don't use that word because it's misleading. The connotation that goes with that word is that the rapture happens only to believers (while the rest are "left behind") and it happens sometime prior to the last day, when in fact, all will be resurrected on the last day and all will stand before the throne of God on that day, not only the believers.

How do they work that around Trumpet 7 in Revelation (or do they say that 7 was a past event around the time of the cross)?

 

[LastSeven]

How do they work that around Trumpet 7 in Revelation (or do they say that 7 was a past event around the time of the cross)?

There's no need to "work around it" because that trumpet coincides with the last day resurrection. We know this because the description tells us that when the trumpet blows the time has come for the judgment and the reign of God with Christ on the new earth.

 

[Inkfingers]

There's no need to "work around it" because that trumpet coincides with the last day resurrection. We know this because the description tells us that when the trumpet blows the time has come for the judgment and the reign of God with Christ on the new earth.

But the trumpet is before the bowls. So the trumpet calls, all are zoomed up to heaven, and then the bowls fall on a world in which there is nobody left....which kind of makes them a bit pointless.

The bowls only have meaning if only some are brought up at the 7th trumpet whilst others remain on earth to get the sores, earthquakes, army from across the euprhates etc.

 

[LastSeven]

Where the bowls fall does not change the fact that the seventh trumpet ushers in the judgment and the everlasting reign of God and his Christ. The scripture is clear on that. Don't let nebulous scriptures distract you from the undeniable facts.

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

[Inkfingers]

Where the bowls fall does not change the fact that the seventh trumpet ushers in the judgment and the everlasting reign of God and his Christ. The scripture is clear on that. Don't let nebulous scriptures distract you from the undeniable facts.

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

At the 7th Trumpet:
* God's mystery is fulfilled (Revelation 10:7)
* The temple in heaven is opened (Revelation 11:19)
* the Kingdom comes (Revelation 11:15)
* the 'rapture' happens (1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17) (1 Corinthians 15:50-52)

Only after which are the Bowls poured out on Babylon and those who have taken the mark.

Which means that some are brought into Heaven before the bowl judgements and others brought along later after Babylon has been given a sound talking to....

Which is what I can't figure out as being one event.

[EDIT: see post 45 for correction on this post - nobody appears to get into heaven after Trumpet 7 is blown....all foolish virgins please check oil levels now]

 

[LastSeven]

My understanding of God's wrath is that the lake of fire is his wrath. This is where people are sent after the judgment. Perhaps the bowls are simply symbolic for the wrath they will suffer in the lake of fire.

Regardless, it can't be denied that the seventh trumpet ushers in the judgment and God's eternal reign. All other scripture surrounding this has to be understood in light of these clear facts.

 

[Jipsah]

Not looking to start an argument...but how do proponents of "mainstream eschatology" view the 'rapture' verses ((1 Thessalonians 4:17) and (1 Corinthians 15:52))?

Those are events that occur at the return of our Lord.

 

[Douggg]

There seems to be too many "rapturists" (to coin a phrase) here!

To those who are lurking, I don't believe this is a majority view throughout the saints worldwide. In the USA, perhaps, but not the rest of the world.

Makes a person wonder why more Australians, and other English speaking saints outside of the U.S. don't frequent this eschatology forum. Do you have any theories about that ?

 

[Gnarwhal]

There seems to be too many "rapturists" (to coin a phrase) here!

To those who are lurking, I don't believe this is a majority view throughout the saints worldwide. In the USA, perhaps, but not the rest of the world.

Join the club.

I've been on this forum eight years and the conversation in this sub has always been absurdly lopsided. The reason there is such a high concentration of "rapturists" (to borrow your phrase) on here is because they're too few in the real world, and they're also doing their best to hide out (from whatever their flavor-of-the-week red alert is).

My ex-wife's mom was the biggest "rapturist" I've ever seen, we're talking obscene levels here: driving my ex-wife's father out of retirement because she convinced him to blow their nest egg on a cabin in the woods to ride out the tribulation.

The "rapturist" culture goes beyond heresy, it's downright dangerous. When you have lunatics going around claiming there's reptiles in human skin walking among us, or that the Illuminati is behind some secret government project to fool the world with a "false rapture", or that they're "spraying the skies" with 'chemicals'—when it's come to that we've ventured into the realm of the devil, a deliberate shifting of focus off of the sacred, holy, and reverent worship of Jesus Christ and on to these fables concocted by heretics and charlatans like Darby, Scofield, Lindsey, LaHaye/Jenkins and all those ham radio dilettantes like Steve Quayle, Alex Jones and Rick Wiles.

 

[stephen583]

Not looking to start an argument...but how do proponents of "mainstream eschatology" view the 'rapture' verses ((1 Thessalonians 4:17) and (1 Corinthians 15:52))?

I Thessalonians 4:16 (the preceding verse), refers only to the "resurrection" of the DEAD, which comes FIRST according to Scripture. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Corinthians 15:52 refer to both the Resurrection of the Dead, and the Rapture of those who remain alive until the Second Coming of Christ. Resurrection applies to the dead and Rapture applies to the living. That's the way I read it anyways. For me, 1 Corinthians 15:52 is Scriptural proof the Rapture is unmistakably a Post-Tribulation event.

What I find most astonishing, is that so many (Christians ?) do not believe in a spiritual "gathering" together of the saints who are here on earth during the Tribulation Period, even though the Scripture states explicitly Elijah must come first before the Second Advent of Christ and "restore all things" (Malachi 4:5, Mark 9:12 and Matthew 17:11). I suppose both the Old Testament (Malachi), and the Gospel (Matthew 17:11) have to be ignored in order for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine to work at all.

Understand, I'm not supporting the idea of a Mid Tribulation Rapture. Nobody is going anywhere during the spiritual "gathering" together and restoration which Elijah must undertake, just as nobody was Raptured during the time of John the Baptist either. The restoration event Elijah undertakes is not synonymous with the Rapture event which takes place at the end of the Tribulation Period when Christ appears.

The purpose of Elijah and his ministry, is not to take believers "out of the world", but to restore them to the True Gospel of Christ and the Word of God, and keep them safe from the evil one, (John 17:15). When the Rapture does occur, there won't be any reason to remove believers from the earth to protect them, because Satan will be dealt with the instant Christ returns. The Rapture has nothing whatsoever to do with "protection". At least that's the way I read it.

 

[Inkfingers]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (the preceding verse), refers only to the "resurrection" of the DEAD, which comes FIRST according to Scripture. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Corinthians 15:52 refer to both the Resurrection of the Dead, and the Rapture of those who remain alive until the Second Coming of Christ. Resurrection applies to the dead and Rapture applies to the living. That's the way I read it anyways.

That is the raising only of the "dead in Christ" though, not all of the dead.

For me, 1 Corinthians 15:52 is Scriptural proof the Rapture is unmistakably a Post-Tribulation event.

Well, I'm not a pre-Tribber so that's not really a problem for me. By my understanding, the rapture happens at Trumpet 7, the last trump, just prior to the bowl judgements being poured out on all who remain on the earth.

The Rapture has nothing whatsoever to do with "protection". At least that's the way I read it.

Ah, see, that's where I disagree. It takes Christians away from the Earth whilst the bowl judgements are poured out on the rest.

 

[Hazrus]

Makes a person wonder why more Australians, and other English speaking saints outside of the U.S. don't frequent this eschatology forum. Do you have any theories about that ?

Douggg, that's a very interesting question. For some reason it seems like most forums I frequent online are full of Americans. Maybe they have more to say???

I think that in a broad sense "rapturists" are more likely to focus on eschatology since they believe they will be taken away imminently (or at least that certain events are at hand now).

 

[keras]

I wish mainstream eschatology was represented equally in this forum.
A good idea, unfortunately mainstream Christianity doesn't have any coherent or Biblically correct eschatology.
Only the fringe church's have anything to do with prophecy and their ideas leave much to be desired.
So it is basically by default, that your average Christian church goer, thinks the next thing to happen is for Jesus to come and take them to heaven.
I, as a church attender for 60 + years, have yet to hear any sermon that seriously addresses prophecy. [Methodist, Baptist, Elim, Apostolic, etc] It has only been my own intensive study that has given me an insight of what God plans for our future.
I believe that is how God wants it, He has given us all the information to know what will happen, but He has placed a veil of misunderstanding over everyone who chooses to believe fictional accounts of the last days, or those who don't bother to try: just too hard and why bother anyway? A very poor attitude that denigrates a large amount of God's Word.

We are so close now to the Day when the Lord will no longer restrain Himself, Isaiah 42:14-15, and the last days events will hit us all like a thunderbolt, our great test of faith, 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, and who can stand?

BTW, I live in New Zealand, as far as prophecy is concerned, it seems very similar to Australia and America. I have attended church's there + England, Russia, China, Thailand, Samoa, Jordan, Israel, I could go on...... None have any real clues about the future.
logostelos.info

 

[Luke17:37]

But the trumpet is before the bowls. So the trumpet calls, all are zoomed up to heaven, and then the bowls fall on a world in which there is nobody left....which kind of makes them a bit pointless.

The bowls only have meaning if only some are brought up at the 7th trumpet whilst others remain on earth to get the sores, earthquakes, army from across the euprhates etc.

To say the trumpets precede the bowls is an assumption. The Bible doesn't say that. It does say the seven trumpets are the seventh seal.

My theory is that the trumpets and bowls happen at the same time... first trumpet and first bowl, ... seventh trumpet and seventh bowl. The seventh trumpet and bowl have the same plagues, and I can see a potential relationship between the trumpets and bowls.

The first and fifth bowl focus on the beast's kingdom (the people, and the land). What if the second through fourth bowls are centered over the seat of the beast's kingdom? Then 1/3 of the oceans could die, for example, but in the area around the beast's kingdoms, all the creatures in the oceans would die.

The wrath is promised to the people with the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11), but Christians will die rather than take it (Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15-17). Also, Christians are told to "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues." (Revelation 18:4). So there shouldn't be any Christians in "Babylon the Great" because they will have already been killed or left to other countries.

The parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13 says first the tares (the wicked, false-Christians) will be gathered to be burned, and the wheat will be gathered. In light of this Scripture, it doesn't follow to me that the seventh trumpet can precede the bowls, since in that case the wheat would be gathered before the tares.

Also, there's a warning in the sixth bowl to believers about keeping their faith, right in the middle of the verses about the armies assembling at Armaggedon (Revelation 16:15). If the believers were raptured at an earlier seventh trumpet, then this would necessitate post-trumpet conversions and two raptures (one at the seventh trumpet and one at the seventh bowl), but nothing in the Bible supports two raptures.

That's my two cents. God bless, Inkfingers.

 

[Inkfingers]

The first and fifth bowl focus on the beast's kingdom (the people, and the land). What if the second through fourth bowls are centered over the seat of the beast's kingdom? Then 1/3 of the oceans could die, for example, but in the area around the beast's kingdoms, all the creatures in the oceans would die.

The bowls and trumpets are both viewed from John's perspective in Heaven and so are not simply different views from the earth.

Also, why does John not see the first trumpet and then the first bowl rather than trumpets together and bowls together in two distinct groups?

I'm going to stck with all 7 trumpets completing before the bowls begin. The Trumpets are a last chance truncated forerunner warning of all hell about to break loose and a final opportunity and warning to repent before the full might hits.

The wrath is promised to the people with the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11), but Christians will die rather than take it. Also, Christians are told to "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues." (Revelation 18:4). So there shouldn't be any Christians in "Babylon the Great" because they will have already been killed or left to other countries.

These are either the post-rapture converts, or the 5 foolish virgins, who, seeing the rapture happen, fall on their knees and repent.

The parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13 says first the tares (the wicked, false-Christians) will be gathered to be burned, and the wheat will be gathered. In light of this Scripture, it doesn't follow to me that the seventh trumpet can precede the bowls, since in that case the wheat would be gathered before the tares.

That's 1000 years later, at the Gog-Magog war after the millennial reign.

Also, there's a warning in the sixth bowl to believers about keeping their faith, right in the middle of the verses about the armies assembling at Armaggedon (Revelation 16:15). If the believers were raptured at an earlier seventh trumpet, then this would necessitate post-trumpet conversions and two raptures (one at the seventh trumpet and one at the seventh bowl), but nothing in the Bible supports two raptures.

There isn't a second rapture - the post-rapture converts/5 virgins don't get resurrected until the White Throne 1000 years after the rapture.

That's my two cents. God bless, Inkfingers.

Mine too. Your theory isn't daft, but I don't think it stands up as well as 7 trumps followed by 7 vials.

We'll hopefully know one day though