I think I've got it, "is the truth reason to care?" If so, why?

Gottservant

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Hi there,

This is I think the crux of the problem. Is the truth reason to care? If you can prove that, you can prove that the Biblical account is correct and that Evolution is false. I have returned to debating in the Sciences section and the consensus seems to be that caring happens automatically, irrespective of the truth, which is not the truth. From there it's a quick switch to self-importance and sin is open slather because no one can live up to a perfect standard (except the Jesus they deny).

So if you can prove that the truth is a reason to care, you are home and hosed.

And the truth is, no one cares for truth, any more than reason is logical about itself.

You care for people in the truth, but as far as the world is concerned anyone who needs caring for is already as much "in" something as they are ever going to be and for all that they still don't care. This of course brings into question the nature of love, but I will wait to see how you reply and what you say.
 

Archie the Preacher

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Something seems missing from your argument here, GS.

Here's what I am understanding from your initial paragraph: If the truth (and you don't specify which truth) is reason to care (about what?), then the (YEC understanding of) Biblical history can be proven correct and that destroys the arguments of Evolution (which is also used in a vague and indeterminate manner).

Do I follow your statement so far? Also, could you be more specific about:

What truth?
Care about what?
Use of Evolution in this posting?

Thanks ever so much.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Sorry GS, but you're still spouting double-talk. I have read the "Emperor's New Clothes".

I care about many things. Conforming to your personal preferences is neither an over-riding concern, nor something God instructs me to take seriously.

One notes I am the only one to answer this so far, so one can assume the YEC people are just as confused by your incoherent statement as I.
 
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Gottservant

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I am just speaking from experience.

I have come up with very concrete examples of limitations of Evolution (we're not aliens, there are caretaker genes, without belief you have no balance, etc etc etc) and when people hear it, they just don't care.

But caring about the truth is primary, without that you can't convince anyone of anything.

So whatever you think your point is, you have not helped so far.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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GS, just as a matter of curiosity, when did God die and leave you in charge?

How is it you now have the authority to judge me and tell me I have not helped so far?

I can see you speak from experience. I'm not sure just exactly what you're experiencing, but no doubt it's an experience.
 
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Gottservant

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Well...

...the point... of this thread... is that people don't care what I argue when I argue against Evolution...

...and the fact that you haven't given me something to say at least, means at least at face value you have left me without an answer.

now does that sound like brotherly love to you?
 
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Archie the Preacher

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GS, I never gave you an answer because you never asked a question. You posted a rather curious arrangements of words that hinted at meaning without conveying any.

Then you told me if I didn't understand your gibberish, I wasn't worthy.
 
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Calminian

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Hi there,

This is I think the crux of the problem. Is the truth reason to care? If you can prove that, you can prove that the Biblical account is correct and that Evolution is false. I have returned to debating in the Sciences section and the consensus seems to be that caring happens automatically, irrespective of the truth, which is not the truth. From there it's a quick switch to self-importance and sin is open slather because no one can live up to a perfect standard (except the Jesus they deny).

So if you can prove that the truth is a reason to care, you are home and hosed.

And the truth is, no one cares for truth, any more than reason is logical about itself.

You care for people in the truth, but as far as the world is concerned anyone who needs caring for is already as much "in" something as they are ever going to be and for all that they still don't care. This of course brings into question the nature of love, but I will wait to see how you reply and what you say.

I think I see where you're going. It is definitely true that truth is not a very high moral value in today's thinking, in particular, spiritual truth. I would also say that evidence is really not the issue for most people in their natural state. People claim to be all about the evidence, but really, evidence is just a means to an end, which is whatever belief they are comfortable in.

The good news is, of course, that God can reach down and open the mind of the natural man. Thus, any efforts we put out to persuade have a chance, and are not in vain. All the glory of course, goes to God.
 
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SkyWriting

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Hi there,

This is I think the crux of the problem. Is the truth reason to care? If you can prove that, you can prove that the Biblical account is correct and that Evolution is false. I have returned to debating in the Sciences section and the consensus seems to be that caring happens automatically, irrespective of the truth, which is not the truth. From there it's a quick switch to self-importance and sin is open slather because no one can live up to a perfect standard (except the Jesus they deny). So if you can prove that the truth is a reason to care, you are home and hosed.And the truth is, no one cares for truth, any more than reason is logical about itself. You care for people in the truth, but as far as the world is concerned anyone who needs caring for is already as much "in" something as they are ever going to be and for all that they still don't care. This of course brings into question the nature of love, but I will wait to see how you reply and what you say.

Love for others is the only Truth. So it IS "care". Outside of that, our understanding is what it is. Love covers misunderstandings as well. But understandings don't trump love.
 
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Gottservant

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This still bothers me.

The more I continue to debate it, the more I realize they just don't care.

It is getting to be a case of "don't cast your pearls before swine", with them and atheists too.

But if you're dictating the conversation and you don't care, there can be no witness.

And witness is crucial.
 
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Gottservant

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I think I've worked out what this contrasts to.

The opposite question to "is the truth a reason to care?" which is what a believer asks, is "is evolution a justification to destroy?" which is a sort of insane rhetoric used to deflect the possibility of faith in its own right.

As believers we know this second question to be an appeal to works, but in ignorance I think the unbeliever typically sees responding with works over and above the possibility of total destruction as a kind of blank slate by which any sin can be overlooked, which is the point, but put in a context without a life changed from sin and instead left in sin.

I don't know if you are following this without some sort of handy meme though and that's where things are difficult. I think people's choices with respect to Evolution, end them up in Hell, but on the whole they don't realize it, so there is no fundamental conviction about how awful it is to waste your life believing that acting like an animal makes it all better. How you put this in terms that makes sense to both them and us, or even just them for crying out loud, is a real challenge.

Not sure if you can give me feedback on that.
 
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Radagast

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I think the unbeliever typically sees responding with works over and above the possibility of total destruction as a kind of blank slate by which any sin can be overlooked, which is the point, but put in a context without a life changed from sin and instead left in sin

I would suggest that you go to the philosophy forums and start a discussion on sin and morality, rather than trying to win the Evolution debate.
 
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Gottservant

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I would suggest that you go to the philosophy forums and start a discussion on sin and morality, rather than trying to win the Evolution debate.

You presume principle to have less authority than it really does, which given that principle is all Evolution has to stand on is rather childish.
 
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mark kennedy

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I think I've worked out what this contrasts to.

The opposite question to "is the truth a reason to care?" which is what a believer asks, is "is evolution a justification to destroy?" which is a sort of insane rhetoric used to deflect the possibility of faith in its own right.

As believers we know this second question to be an appeal to works, but in ignorance I think the unbeliever typically sees responding with works over and above the possibility of total destruction as a kind of blank slate by which any sin can be overlooked, which is the point, but put in a context without a life changed from sin and instead left in sin.

I don't know if you are following this without some sort of handy meme though and that's where things are difficult. I think people's choices with respect to Evolution, end them up in Hell, but on the whole they don't realize it, so there is no fundamental conviction about how awful it is to waste your life believing that acting like an animal makes it all better. How you put this in terms that makes sense to both them and us, or even just them for crying out loud, is a real challenge.

Not sure if you can give me feedback on that.

That's refreshing and I have to admit, I'm as bad as anyone. I've always felt that the Creation/Evolution thing was neutral territory. Most of what I take away from the debates is useless in those debates. In answer to your question, of course you should care but there is a time and place where you simply have to take a stand. With Creation, the doctrine is inextricably linked to the Incarnation and I'm repulsed by Christian who profess faith while having no interest in the Gospel. I wouldn't have a problem with TEs if they did anything other then insult Creationists.

It's a contentious topic brother, that doesn't mean it has to be. The smoke is clearing from the arguments that were raging a few years ago. I'm also noticing that skepticism within Christian scholarship is toning down after decades of struggling on the part of conservative scholars.

I've always been cautious about discussing doctrine in this context, it will get trampled under foot and they will turn and bite you. CF has a group that calls themselves the members of the round table. They are committed to being civil and substantive no matter what, it's a fine standard to uphold. You may not realize it but the mobs of evolutionist anarchy is thinning out. Maybe it's time for a change, it's even possible that your the guy who can turn it around.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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