"I see no evidence in the Word that faith and repentance are gifts from God."

[cygnusx1]

No evidence even when the scripture is crystal clear ?

Ephesians 2:8-10.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”


Philippians 1:29 he writes, “For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.”

2 Peter 1:1. There we read, “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

God also grants , gifts repentance ;

2 Timothy:
“And the Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will” (2:24-26).



‘Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life’” (Acts 11:18; see also 5:31).

 

[JustAsIam77]

Yes and one more, And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48

 

[spiritual warrior]

No evidence even when the scripture is crystal clear ?

Ephesians 2:8-10.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

However, when we correctly interpret the passage above, faith is NOT what is being given as a gift...the gift is "saved." When we further correctly interpret the passage, the word for "saved" here simply means deliverance, not eternal life.

Philippians 1:29 he writes, “For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.”

True, but then again, when we correctly interpret the passage, it is saying that it has been granted that those who want eternal life must not only believe in Him, but also suffer for His sake.

2 Peter 1:1. There we read, “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

Yes, but I have no idea what version of scripture you are using, for all the version I have read..."to those who have obtained..." meaning that they chose, as if by lot, to believe, NOT that they were given faith by God. That is impossible since faith is a choice...we choose to believe or we choose not to believe, otherwise you are preaching fatalism, and that is a heresy.

 

[cygnusx1]

well the evidence is crystal clear that God gives faith and repentance regardless of Arminian default answers .

scripture doesn't bend it around so that man is at the epicentre of causal salvation , rather scripture expects us to be thankful not only for the receiving of salvation but also for the cause !

God isn't merely the finisher of our salvation He is the author .

How do we know faith is granted to us ? scripture tells us .

2 Peter 1:1. There we read, “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours

have you received faith as well as salvation ? then it must be a cause of great thanksgiving , quit halving God's Praise .

 

[spiritual warrior]

well the evidence is crystal clear that God gives faith and repentance regardless of Arminian default answers .

First off, the "evidence" is not crystal clear, otherwise all would accept it, but all do not. From what I can see, the only ones who believe that are those who also hold to certain other teachings, and those are also up for grabs as far as evidence and proper hermeneutical interpretation is concerned.

Second, what I said has nothing to do with Arminianism. Arminianism is out in left field, and Calvinism is out in right field...neither one is correct or theologically sound. Where they meet in the middle is theologically sound, and that is where I come from.

scripture doesn't bend it around so that man is at the epicentre of causal salvation...

Scripture dictates plainly that God provided the way, and that it is up to us not only to choose between Him or the world, but also to walk in it. You seem to want to make God do everything, taking all of your responsibilities upon Himself...but sorry, God does not do that. You and I have responsibilities to God, and if you can't shoulder that, don't blame that on erroneous interpretations of scripture.

God isn't merely the finisher of our salvation He is the author .

Correct...He drew up the Plan of Redemption, did His part in sending Christ to earth to make atonement for us so that we could participate in His Covenant. Then it is your part...you choose to participate or you choose to ignore it, but the ball is in your court.

How do we know faith is granted to us ? scripture tells us .

2 Peter 1:1. There we read, “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours

We know that God does not "give" us faith as a gift because 1. He does not tell us that anywhere, and 2. that would defeat His purpose in creating us in the first place. We have free will because we need to choose between Him or the world, and we cannot freely choose one or the other if we are made to by being "given" faith.

 

[heymikey80]

We know that God does not "give" us faith as a gift because 1. He does not tell us that anywhere, and 2. that would defeat His purpose in creating us in the first place. We have free will because we need to choose between Him or the world, and we cannot freely choose one or the other if we are made to by being "given" faith.

1. He does tell us that explicitly, for instance at 1 Cor 12:9. God does give faith.

2. It's pretty clear from 1 Cor 12:9 that it didn't defeat God's purpose in creation; so neither at Pp 1:29, or Eph 2:8-9, nor anywhere else. In point of fact, if free will choice is God's purpose in creating us, then God's made quite a secret of it. Free will is never stated in Scripture, much less being the purpose of God's creation.

However, when we correctly interpret the passage above, faith is NOT what is being given as a gift...the gift is "saved." When we further correctly interpret the passage, the word for "saved" here simply means deliverance, not eternal life.

Given the critique of the immediate antecedent noun, this interpretation actually has Paul committing two grammatical errors: one, using an adjective to modify a verb, and two, misattributing the gender of the adjective.

The worse grammatical solution is not the correct interpretation.

True, but then again, when we correctly interpret the passage, it is saying that it has been granted that those who want eternal life must not only believe in Him, but also suffer for His sake.

Pp 1:29 damages this argument quite well. The term's "given", and it's very clearly not a condition, but an indication. They were given to have faith, they were given to suffer.

So does:

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. Rom 12:3

7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit 1 Cor 12:7-9

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.2 Thess 1:3

Yes, but I have no idea what version of scripture you are using, for all the version I have read..."to those who have obtained..." meaning that they chose, as if by lot, to believe, NOT that they were given faith by God. That is impossible since faith is a choice...we choose to believe or we choose not to believe, otherwise you are preaching fatalism, and that is a heresy.

Begging the question. There's no demand for choice in receiving.

 

[hope_is_last_to_die]

salvation is a free gift, can people reject a free gift? So God offers gifts to all people and some people accept the gifts but sadly many reject His gifts. Because God decided to create all people with the ability to chose whether to accept or reject His gifts makes Him limited in His power??

 

[cygnusx1]

salvation is a free gift, can people reject a free gift? So God offers gifts to all people and some people accept the gifts but sadly many reject His gifts. Because God decided to create all people with the ability to chose whether to accept or reject His gifts makes Him limited in His power??

God gives rain and sunshine , never seen anyone decide for God ever .

 

[Incariol]

well the evidence is crystal clear that God gives faith and repentance regardless of Arminian default answers .

scripture doesn't bend it around so that man is at the epicentre of causal salvation , rather scripture expects us to be thankful not only for the receiving of salvation but also for the cause !

This is why Sola Scriptura doesn't work. People interpret it differently and end up with threads like these.

 

[Hotpepper]

This is why Sola Scriptura doesn't work. People interpret it differently and end up with threads like these.

This seems a bit rash in conclusion. Would you mind explaining this idea in a little more detail? What brought you to this conclusion precisely, and if not Sola Scriptura then what do you suggest? What would you say does work?

 

[Incariol]

This seems a bit rash in conclusion. Would you mind explaining this idea in a little more detail? What brought you to this conclusion precisely,

I lived with 5 other Christian housemates. We could literally sit at the kitchen table, mention a verse, and get at least 4 completely different interpretations that would result in drastic disagreements that would drag into long, heated debates for hours on end.

and if not Sola Scriptura then what do you suggest? What would you say does work?

The traditions and teachings of the Apostolic Church. The Church Fathers, the Ecumenical Councils, and so on. We have a faith "once delivered to the saints", so when there is any dispute, I'll go to the teachings of the Fathers, and rest secure knowing that when a historic doctrine conflicts with some newfangled theology, the former is correct.

 

[Hotpepper]

well the evidence is crystal clear that God gives faith and repentance regardless of Arminian default answers .

scripture doesn't bend it around so that man is at the epicentre of causal salvation , rather scripture expects us to be thankful not only for the receiving of salvation but also for the cause !

God isn't merely the finisher of our salvation He is the author .

I think you might be using the word Arminian a bit too loosely here. I'm not sure what a "default" Arminian answer is exactly -- as if all Arminians would answer the same exact way? Or that the blanket statement of response to what you are saying is always in opposition to your statement? I hope that isn't what you mean, because I am actually in full agreement with you.

 

[Hotpepper]

I lived with 5 other Christian housemates. We could literally sit at the kitchen table, mention a verse, and get at least 4 completely different interpretations that would result in drastic disagreements that would drag into long, heated debates for hours on end.

I'm wondering if your sole reason for this is entirely based on personal experience, or is there something else?

The traditions and teachings of the Apostolic Church. The Church Fathers, the Ecumenical Councils, and so on. We have a faith "once delivered to the saints", so when there is any dispute, I'll go to the teachings of the Fathers, and rest secure knowing that when a historic doctrine conflicts with some newfangled theology, the former is correct.

History has shown that there has always been disputes and disagreements even among the early Church Fathers and especially among the Ecumenical Councils eg.. Arianism, Monarchianism, Sabellianism, Nestorianism for starters... the irony here is that Scripture is what was used as the primary source to counter such disputes and even gave birth to the Nicene Creed.

I wouldn't blame "scripture alone" for all the confusion. Especially considering God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33) It is man that is flawed ever since the fall. Even Paul stated that the law is good. Man has never been able to measure up to God's standards. Thus the reason for the Way through Christ Jesus. Mankind will always have flaws within his theologies, deeds, thoughts and we will always be in disagreement because we are not yet in our glorified state. Thus it is by His grace that we are not all hopelessly lost.

 

[spiritual warrior]

1. He does tell us that explicitly, for instance at 1 Cor 12:9. God does give faith.

Yes, but unless you are playing games here, lets keep it in context. The faith spoken of here is explicitly a spiritual gift, it is not the faith that one needs in order to enter in with God. Spiritual gifts are only given to those who are already in the family of God...they are not given to those who are not indwelled by the Spirit in order to be saved.

2. It's pretty clear from 1 Cor 12:9 that it didn't defeat God's purpose in creation; so neither at Pp 1:29, or Eph 2:8-9, nor anywhere else.

You obviously didn't read all that I wrote. Eph 2.8...

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

When this sentence is properly delineated, the gift is NOT faith, the gift is "saved" (literally, deliverance). The word translated as faith in this passage is pistis, meaning the system of faith, or the doctrines one believes in, it does not mean trusting belief as like Cygnus wants us to believe.

In point of fact, if free will choice is God's purpose in creating us, then God's made quite a secret of it. Free will is never stated in Scripture, much less being the purpose of God's creation.

As I have stated before, God does not tell us what is obvious. The free will of man is implicated from Genesis to Revelation, and whether some like it or not, that is the reality of it all. To stick to one's guns on the subject that we do not have free will, when it is clearly not taught in scripture, is to deny the facts of scripture for one's biased opinion, evolutionists do the same thing with the facts of nature...

Given the critique of the immediate antecedent noun, this interpretation actually has Paul committing two grammatical errors: one, using an adjective to modify a verb, and two, misattributing the gender of the adjective.

Nope, try again. "Saved" is in this sentence functions as both predicate and is in the perfect participle passive. As such, the participle functions as a verbal adjective and in this sentence, functions as an adjective. the passive voice indicates that it is receiving the action of the verb (in this case, "are"). Faith in this case is a noun, and saved is not a verb, but an adjective.

The worse grammatical solution is not the correct interpretation.

I agree, I suggest a little more study in the Greek will help you.

Pp 1:29 damages this argument quite well. The term's "given", and it's very clearly not a condition, but an indication. They were given to have faith, they were given to suffer.

It appears part of your response here is missing, nevertheless, the word for "granted" in this passage is the word charízomai in the future tense, simply meaning granted AT ONE POINT IN TIME, AS IF DECIDED UPON not continually given to men down through the centuries whenever one is "chosen" by God, in the same sense as in my place of work at one point in the past has granted a policy for its employees to be able to take vacation. You forget the definite articles here before both "believe" and "suffer," indicating conditions to be met.

Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted for the sake of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

I will have to address your other passages later, I have run out of time.

 

[spiritual warrior]

God gives rain and sunshine , never seen anyone decide for God ever .

This is misplaced.

 

[Hotpepper]

I suppose if one was looking for the default Arminian answer it would have to come straight from the horses mouth.

The Works of James Arminius, Vol. 2 FIFTH PART: ON FAITH

Faith is a gracious and gratuitous gift of God, bestowed according to the administration of the means necessary to conduce to the end, that is, according to such an administration as the justice of God requires, either towards the side of mercy or towards that of severity. It is a gift which is not bestowed according to an absolute will of saving some particular men; for it is a condition required in the object to be saved, and it is in fact a condition before it is the means for obtaining salvation.10. Saving faith is that of the elect of God; it is not the faith of all men, of perverse and wicked men, not of those who repel the word of grace, and account themselves unworthy of life eternal, not of those who resist the Holy Spirit, not of those who reject the counsel of God against themselves, nor of those who have not been ordained to life eternal. No man believes in Christ except he has been previously disposed and prepared, by preventing or preceding grace, to receive life eternal on that condition on which God wills to bestow it, according to the following passage of Scripture: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7:17.)

 

[Brother Chris]

This is misplaced.

Sinful man is spiritual dead in his sins and he hates God and loves sin. Tell me how he, in that state, can choose Christ? It is impossible. Not because man is physically unable to choose Christ, but morally unable. This is how God can hold him accountable. Man deliberately and willfully rejects Christ by nature. Is God wrong in punishing him for that? Is He wrong in sending him to hell for that? No. Is there a choice to make? Yes! Does God command everyone to repent? Yes! But unless God illuminates the mind and changes the heart of the sinner, he will not repent and he will not believe. He will exercise his freewill to reject Christ continually, unless God steps in and saves Him. "By grace you are saved, through faith-and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." God doesn't have to save anyone. He owes no one anything. So when He chooses to save someone it is only by His grace! And grace is unearned, undeserved, unmerited favor.

 

[Terene]

Sinful man is spiritual dead in his sins and he hates God and loves sin. Tell me how he, in that state, can choose Christ? It is impossible. Not because man is physically unable to choose Christ, but morally unable. This is how God can hold him accountable. Man deliberately and willfully rejects Christ by nature. Is God wrong in punishing him for that? Is He wrong in sending him to hell for that? No. Is there a choice to make? Yes! Does God command everyone to repent? Yes! But unless God illuminates the mind and changes the heart of the sinner, he will not repent and he will not believe. He will exercise his freewill to reject Christ continually, unless God steps in and saves Him. "By grace you are saved, through faith-and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." God doesn't have to save anyone. He owes no one anything. So when He chooses to save someone it is only by His grace! And grace is unearned, undeserved, unmerited favor.

How much longer must this error be propagated? Was not Cornelius a Gentile who was an unregenerated sinner and yet he feared God and lived righteously in his spiritually dead state? Cornelius believed in God and feared Him, and this finally got his entire household saved because God saw his heart and honored him, and he did all this while being spiritually dead in his sins. Saying that men are unable to accept God while spiritually dead is an error that has been here all along, and is not a biblical doctrine at all. It is shocking to me how such an error can be so blinding that even what the Bible has clearly showed us is not able to lead out of error.

 

[cygnusx1]

This is why Sola Scriptura doesn't work. People interpret it differently and end up with threads like these.

it works fine . people may have their interpretations that's like painting a rose . scripture reads pretty clearly about faith and repentance being gifts of God . How do I know this ? I can read !


just accept what is written , it isn't even a question of interpretation (avoidance) just faith in what scripture says .

Ephesians 2:8-10.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”


Philippians 1:29 he writes, “For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.”

2 Peter 1:1. There we read, “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

God also grants , gifts repentance ;

2 Timothy:
“And the Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will” (2:24-26).



‘Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life’” (Acts 11:18; see also 5:31).

 

[cygnusx1]

This is misplaced.

God's Grace is free .