Was Nestorius a heretic

  • Yes, why?

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  • No, why?

    Votes: 2 40.0%

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UnitedFaithUponTruth

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Hello everyone. I am part of the Greek Orthodox church. I'm pretty familiar about church history and Theology. I know that the Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox churches believe that ecumenical councils are dogma. And I accept all the Eastern Orthodox ecumenical councils but one. The council of Ephesus is the one I reject and I'll tell you why.

I came to the believe that Nestorius didn't actually teach what we now call nestorianism. I used to always accept that people are heretics if the church said so. But reading the words of Nestorius himself, I see no heresy from his end. What I see is a political power struggle between the oriental Orthodox and the school of Antioch. When one reads the letters of Nestorius to Cyril and vice versa one could understand Nestorius better. But what really convinced that Nestorius is innocent was a book called the Bazaar of Heracleies. It Is a Syriac translating of the original Greek book of Nestorius that he wrote in the year 451/452.

Nestorius responds to the people accusing him of heresy and looks back on his exile. The way he speaks and explains things is pure orthodox Orthodox and in line of the early Church Fathers.

I am afraid, I must admit. Because what will this mean for me? Am I no longer part of the Orthodox church because I can not accept the council of Ephesus?

Thank you.
 
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HTacianas

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Hello everyone. I am part of the Greek Orthodox church. I'm pretty familiar about church history and Theology. I know that the Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox churches believe that ecumenical councils are dogma. And I accept all the Eastern Orthodox ecumenical councils but one. The council of Ephesus is the one I reject and I'll tell you why.

I came to the believe that Nestorius didn't actually teach what we now call nestorianism. I used to always accept that people are heretics if the church said so. But reading the words of Nestorius himself, I see no heresy from his end. What I see is a political power struggle between the oriental Orthodox and the school of Antioch. When one reads the letters of Nestorius to Cyril and vice versa one could understand Nestorius better. But what really convinced that Nestorius is innocent was a book called the Bazaar of Heracleies. It Is a Syriac translating of the original Greek book of Nestorius that he wrote in the year 451/452.

Nestorius responds to the people accusing him of heresy and looks back on his exile. The way he speaks and explains things is pure orthodox Orthodox and in line of the early Church Fathers.

I am afraid, I must admit. Because what will this mean for me? Am I no longer part of the Orthodox church because I can not accept the council of Ephesus?

Thank you.

Firstly, don't let that cause you to reject the Council of Ephesus. Even today theologians debate whether Nestorius himself was in fact a Nestorian or if there was in fact ever a schism.

It's something for the Patriarchs to decide. Not us.
 
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Nestorius considered himself innocent, however in his error he divided the humanity from the divinity and separated them totally, this was extremely serious considering Nestorius was unknowingly advocating for two hypostases within Christ. How was he in line with the Church Fathers when he rejected the title of Theotokos for the mother of the incarnate Christ, a title used by the Church since the beginning:

Irenaeus

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus

“[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]” (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

“For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David” (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

“It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’” (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria

“They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs” (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

“We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God” (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).

Methodius

“While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

“Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid., 14).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness” (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian

“Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God” (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius

“The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God” (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

“Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan

“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?” (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

Gregory of Nazianz

“If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead” (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

“As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing” (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

“Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God” (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia

“When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation” (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

Cyril of Alexandria

“I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?” (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

“This expression, however, ‘the Word was made flesh’ [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin ‘the Mother of God,’ not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh” (First Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

“And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh” (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

“If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema” (ibid.).

John Cassian

“Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God—for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God” (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).

“You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God” (ibid., 2:5).

Council of Ephesus

“We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her” (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).

As we see there’s a continuity between the Council of Ephesus and the early councils of Constantinople and Nicaea and with the Fathers of Ephesus and the two previous councils. Nestorius was willing to reject them all for his heresy, to reject Ephesus you have to also reject its continuity with the other two previous councils and the Fathers who came before Nestorius and refute his heresy.
 
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Nestorius considered himself innocent, however in his error he divided the humanity from the divinity and separated them totally, this was extremely serious considering Nestorius was unknowingly advocating for two hypostases within Christ. How was he in line with the Church Fathers when he rejected the title of Theotokos for the mother of the incarnate Christ, a title used by the Church since the beginning:

Irenaeus

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus

“[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]” (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

“For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David” (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

“It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’” (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria

“They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs” (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

“We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God” (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).

Methodius

“While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

“Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid., 14).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness” (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian

“Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God” (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius

“The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God” (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

“Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan

“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?” (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

Gregory of Nazianz

“If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead” (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

“As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing” (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

“Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God” (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia

“When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation” (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

Cyril of Alexandria

“I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?” (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).

“This expression, however, ‘the Word was made flesh’ [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin ‘the Mother of God,’ not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh” (First Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

“And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh” (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).

“If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema” (ibid.).

John Cassian

“Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God—for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God” (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).

“You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God” (ibid., 2:5).

Council of Ephesus

“We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her” (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).

As we see there’s a continuity between the Council of Ephesus and the early councils of Constantinople and Nicaea and with the Fathers of Ephesus and the two previous councils. Nestorius was willing to reject them all for his heresy, to reject Ephesus you have to also reject its continuity with the other two previous councils and the Fathers who came before Nestorius and refute his heresy.
Hello, if you look into the Theotokos and Christotokos debate, Nestorius doesn't reject Theotokos but he simply argued that Christotokos is more correct since the Bible is more of favor with that term. Regarding seperating Christ in two. He never believed that there are two sons. He wrote that there is only ONE son. The son of God. One Christ incarnated.
 
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Barney2.0

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Hello, if you look into the Theotokos and Christotokos debate, Nestorius doesn't reject Theotokos but he simply argued that Christotokos is more correct since the Bible is more of favor with that term. Regarding seperating Christ in two. He never believed that there are two sons. He wrote that there is only ONE son. The son of Christ.
Nestorius rejected the term Theotokos because he thought that it was inaccurate to describe Mary as the Mother of God because only Christ the man was born. So he did reject it, Nestorius didn’t believe in two Sons, however his theology ultimately led to two separate Christ’s which is what Saint Cyril warned him about repeatedly.
 
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UnitedFaithUponTruth

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Nestorius rejected the term Theotokos because he thought that it was inaccurate to describe Mary as the Mother of God because only Christ the man was born. So he did reject it, Nestorius didn’t believe in two Sons, however his theology ultimately led to two separate Christ’s which is what Saint Cyril warned him about repeatedly.
Wrong, Nestorius himself said that he doesnt necessary reject the term Theotokos. He rejected the implications of the term. Because it could lead to Mary worship. Did Nestorius believe that Christ is God? Yes. Did he believe that Mary is his mother? Yes. So he believed that Mary was the mother of God. But Theotokos would imply if not defined well enough, that Mary is the mother of the godhead. Please read his letters to Cyril of Alexandria. Nestorius - Reply to Cyril's Second Letter

Please, Read this letter. Is anything in this letter false and heretical? I dont see it.
 
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Andrewn

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Nestorius rejected the term Theotokos because he thought that it was inaccurate to describe Mary as the Mother of God because only Christ the man was born.
You would probably agree that the Virgin is the birth mother of God but not the biological mother of God. Nestorius didn't have such terminology available to him to agree or disagree with.

The point in this controversy is that Nestorius was a follower of Theodore of Mopsuetia and John of Antioch. And the real question is whether the latter were heretics.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Hello everyone. I am part of the Greek Orthodox church. I'm pretty familiar about church history and Theology. I know that the Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox churches believe that ecumenical councils are dogma. And I accept all the Eastern Orthodox ecumenical councils but one. The council of Ephesus is the one I reject and I'll tell you why.

I came to the believe that Nestorius didn't actually teach what we now call nestorianism. I used to always accept that people are heretics if the church said so. But reading the words of Nestorius himself, I see no heresy from his end. What I see is a political power struggle between the oriental Orthodox and the school of Antioch. When one reads the letters of Nestorius to Cyril and vice versa one could understand Nestorius better. But what really convinced that Nestorius is innocent was a book called the Bazaar of Heracleies. It Is a Syriac translating of the original Greek book of Nestorius that he wrote in the year 451/452.

Nestorius responds to the people accusing him of heresy and looks back on his exile. The way he speaks and explains things is pure orthodox Orthodox and in line of the early Church Fathers.

I am afraid, I must admit. Because what will this mean for me? Am I no longer part of the Orthodox church because I can not accept the council of Ephesus?

Thank you.

I have looked into this also and have come to very similar conclusions but understand that it was a power play by Cyril. Just look at the lives of Cyril and Nestorius after all of this occurred. That tells us much! However, I don't reject the Council. I disagree that Nestorius was a heretic, only that he was deemed as one through others bearing false witness against him. You do not need to leave Orthodoxy IMO over this.
 
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I have looked into this also and have come to very similar conclusions but understand that it was a power play by Cyril. Just look at the lives of Cyril and Nestorius after all of this occurred. That tells us much! However, I don't reject the Council. I disagree that Nestorius was a heretic, only that he was deemed as one through others bearing false witness against him. You do not need to leave Orthodoxy IMO over this.
I shouldve been more specific, I dont necessary disagree with the 12 anathemas but I reject that Nestorius is a heretic. I do not wish to leave my Greek Orthodox church, these are my people which I truly love and want to be in communion with. But im afraid I will be judged and casted out if I speak like this in public. I simply cannot accept that Nestorius was teaching heresy because if one starts reading his own works, one comes to the conclusion that Nestorius was slandered.

I always used to believe he was a heretic, until I actually started reading his own words instead of listening to others accusing him.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I shouldve been more specific, I dont necessary disagree with the 12 anathemas but I reject that Nestorius is a heretic. I do not wish to leave my Greek Orthodox church, these are my people which I truly love and want to be in communion with. But im afraid I will be judged and casted out if I speak like this in public. I simply cannot accept that Nestorius was teaching heresy because if one starts reading his own works, one comes to the conclusion that Nestorius was slandered.

I always used to believe he was a heretic, until I actually started reading his own words instead of listening to others accusing him.

You need not leave. I have been called a heretic by ignorant members of my faith, but I am still Orthodox :) You may just have read and understand more than they have.
 
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UnitedFaithUponTruth

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You need not leave. I have been called a heretic by ignorant members of my faith, but I am still Orthodox :) You may just have read and understand more than they have.
Thank you friend
 
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Barney2.0

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You would probably agree that the Virgin is the birth mother of God but not the biological mother of God. Nestorius didn't have such terminology available to him to agree or disagree with.

The point in this controversy is that Nestorius was a follower of Theodore of Mopsuetia and John of Antioch. And the real question is whether the latter were heretics.
I agree that the Virgin is not the biological mother of God, but we don’t separate the natures, so Mary is the mother of the One Christ that is both God and man, so Mary was the mother of God even though she only gave birth to the humanity, Nestorius had the terminology of previous Church Fathers available to him, not to mention that he called the Council at Ephesus to condemn Cyril only it ended up backfiring on him. Nestorius believed that the divinity of the divine Logos indwelled within Christ the man, and they were not identical, which leads to two persons ultimately and this resulted in Nestorius being condemned as a heretic at a council he himself called. John of Antioch came into an agreement with Cyril with both finding common ground.
 
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Barney2.0

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Wrong, Nestorius himself said that he doesnt necessary reject the term Theotokos. He rejected the implications of the term. Because it could lead to Mary worship. Did Nestorius believe that Christ is God? Yes. Did he believe that Mary is his mother? Yes. So he believed that Mary was the mother of God. But Theotokos would imply if not defined well enough, that Mary is the mother of the godhead. Please read his letters to Cyril of Alexandria. Nestorius - Reply to Cyril's Second Letter

Please, Read this letter. Is anything in this letter false and heretical? I dont see it.
The term Theotokos doesn’t lead to Mary worship, Nestorius rejected it based on what he thought was “Orthodox” which is the complete separation of the natures of Christ into two distinct things God the Word and the man Christ, and this is pretty clear when you read his second letter to Cyril, which was exactly Saint Cyril’s problem with Nestorius and his heretical views as he replies to Nestorius in his third letter:

Third Letter to Nestorius | Union Resources
 
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Hello everyone. I am part of the Greek Orthodox church. I'm pretty familiar about church history and Theology. I know that the Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox churches believe that ecumenical councils are dogma. And I accept all the Eastern Orthodox ecumenical councils but one. The council of Ephesus is the one I reject and I'll tell you why.

I came to the believe that Nestorius didn't actually teach what we now call nestorianism. I used to always accept that people are heretics if the church said so. But reading the words of Nestorius himself, I see no heresy from his end. What I see is a political power struggle between the oriental Orthodox and the school of Antioch. When one reads the letters of Nestorius to Cyril and vice versa one could understand Nestorius better. But what really convinced that Nestorius is innocent was a book called the Bazaar of Heracleies. It Is a Syriac translating of the original Greek book of Nestorius that he wrote in the year 451/452.

Nestorius responds to the people accusing him of heresy and looks back on his exile. The way he speaks and explains things is pure orthodox Orthodox and in line of the early Church Fathers.

I am afraid, I must admit. Because what will this mean for me? Am I no longer part of the Orthodox church because I can not accept the council of Ephesus?

Thank you.

Well you have to reject the Council of Chalcedon in 451 also, because he was further anathematized at that Council as well.

It seems you have no faith - or have lost the faith - that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and passed onto their successors. When the majority teach and believe one thing, and the minority another, we have the obligation as orthodox Christians to go with the majority.
Nestorius asserted that Jesus Christ was not identical with the Son of God but personally united with the Son, who lives in Him, and is one hypostasis and one nature that is human...
If that doesn't sound like a heresy I do not know what does. Beyond that Nestorius rejected the title "Theotokos" for our mother St.Mary.

Here is a quote from Cyril's 3rd letter to Nestorius:

"Confessing the Word to be united with the flesh according to the hypostasis, we worship one Son and Lord, Jesus Christ. We do not divide him into parts and separate man and God as though they were united with each other [only] through a unity of dignity and authority... nor do we name separately Christ the Word from God, and in similar fashion, separately, another Christ from the woman, but we know only one Christ, the Word from God the Father with his own flesh... But we do not say that the Word from God dwelt as in an ordinary human born of the holy virgin... we understand that, when he became flesh, not in the same way as he is said to dwell among the saints do we distinguish the manner of the indwelling; but he was united by nature and not turned into flesh... There is, then, one Christ and Son and Lord, not with the sort of conjunction that a human being might have with God as in a unity of dignity or authority; for equality of honor does not unite natures. For Peter and John were equal to each other in honor, both of them being apostles and holy disciples, but the two were not one. Nor do we understand the manner of conjunction to be one of juxtaposition, for this is insufficient in regard to natural union.... Rather we reject the term 'conjunction' as being inadequate to express the union... [T]he holy virgin gave birth in the flesh to God united with the flesh according to hypostasis, for that reason we call her Theotokos... If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is, in truth, God, and therefore that the holy virgin is Theotokos (for she bore in a fleshly manner the Word from God become flesh), let him be anathema." - (Cyril's third letter to Nestorius)

You would give up the Body and Blood of your Lord in the Eucharist because you disagree with the Church anathematizing an obscure heretical Bishop in the 5th century?
The schism ended anyway in 544 AD, when Patriarch Aba I ratified the decision of Chalcedon. Nestorius was in error, then began preaching his error as if it were the truth.
Please share with me a Nestorius quote that has you believe he was a saint and all the other Churches were in error.
 
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anna ~ grace

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I shouldve been more specific, I dont necessary disagree with the 12 anathemas but I reject that Nestorius is a heretic. I do not wish to leave my Greek Orthodox church, these are my people which I truly love and want to be in communion with. But im afraid I will be judged and casted out if I speak like this in public. I simply cannot accept that Nestorius was teaching heresy because if one starts reading his own works, one comes to the conclusion that Nestorius was slandered.

I always used to believe he was a heretic, until I actually started reading his own words instead of listening to others accusing him.

A lot of people have sincere faith, good intentions, and are sincerely invested in what feels or seems right to them. That does not mean that every single part of their Christian walk was flawed, but any strife on Christology needs to be dealt with firmly and surely.

The Assyrian Church of the East now seems to strongly distance itself fron Nestorius, but earlier hymns and creeds do affirm what is essentially a Nestorian Christology. To this day, the ACE rejects the term Theotokos.

I think it is good to recognize some very holy and good and even wonder-working ACE Christians. They are out there. They are fellow Christians, too. But fidelity to councils and creeds is important, too. Minds far keener, humbler, and holier than ours, and souls far greater got help from the Holy Spirit to make the right judgement calls centuries ago. It is important to trust them, even as we look upon one another with love, and humility.
 
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UnitedFaithUponTruth

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Well you have to reject the Council of Chalcedon in 451 also, because he was further anathematized at that Council as well.

It seems you have no faith - or have lost the faith - that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and passed onto their successors. When the majority teach and believe one thing, and the minority another, we have the obligation as orthodox Christians to go with the majority.
Nestorius asserted that Jesus Christ was not identical with the Son of God but personally united with the Son, who lives in Him, and is one hypostasis and one nature that is human...
If that doesn't sound like a heresy I do not know what does. Beyond that Nestorius rejected the title "Theotokos" for our mother St.Mary.

Here is a quote from Cyril's 3rd letter to Nestorius:

"Confessing the Word to be united with the flesh according to the hypostasis, we worship one Son and Lord, Jesus Christ. We do not divide him into parts and separate man and God as though they were united with each other [only] through a unity of dignity and authority... nor do we name separately Christ the Word from God, and in similar fashion, separately, another Christ from the woman, but we know only one Christ, the Word from God the Father with his own flesh... But we do not say that the Word from God dwelt as in an ordinary human born of the holy virgin... we understand that, when he became flesh, not in the same way as he is said to dwell among the saints do we distinguish the manner of the indwelling; but he was united by nature and not turned into flesh... There is, then, one Christ and Son and Lord, not with the sort of conjunction that a human being might have with God as in a unity of dignity or authority; for equality of honor does not unite natures. For Peter and John were equal to each other in honor, both of them being apostles and holy disciples, but the two were not one. Nor do we understand the manner of conjunction to be one of juxtaposition, for this is insufficient in regard to natural union.... Rather we reject the term 'conjunction' as being inadequate to express the union... [T]he holy virgin gave birth in the flesh to God united with the flesh according to hypostasis, for that reason we call her Theotokos... If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is, in truth, God, and therefore that the holy virgin is Theotokos (for she bore in a fleshly manner the Word from God become flesh), let him be anathema." - (Cyril's third letter to Nestorius)

You would give up the Body and Blood of your Lord in the Eucharist because you disagree with the Church anathematizing an obscure heretical Bishop in the 5th century?
The schism ended anyway in 544 AD, when Patriarch Aba I ratified the decision of Chalcedon. Nestorius was in error, then began preaching his error as if it were the truth.
Please share with me a Nestorius quote that has you believe he was a saint and all the other Churches were in error.
I never stated hes a saint or anything like that. I'm simply saying that he is being abused and wasn't allowed a fair hearing. Also I fully believe in the Eucharist. The Theotokos and Christotokos issue is such a semantics game.
 
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Andrewn

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Minds far keener, humbler, and holier than ours, and souls far greater got help from the Holy Spirit to make the right judgement calls centuries ago.
The groups that lost in Ephesus and Chalcedon didn't have these characteristics?
 
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Barney2.0

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I never stated hes a saint or anything like that. I'm simply saying that he is being abused and wasn't allowed a fair hearing. Also I fully believe in the Eucharist. The Theotokos and Christotokos issue is such a semantics game.
Did he allow Saint Cyril a fair hearing, he was the one who called the Council of Ephesus to get Cyril condemned as a heretic only to get the Council backfire on him when he was pretty much unanimously comdemned by the Church. Also using your political and religious position as Partiarch of Constantinople to spread your heretical views in the Church isn’t exactly fair. It also isn’t semantic when you reject either Theotokos or Christotokos based theological views.
 
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