I really didn't expect Obama to win...

[rmw8855]

That was a great letter You go Chuck

 

[intricatic]

Romans 13 talks about rulers, in general, and the Christian attitude towards them. Let's not forget the context - Paul wrote to the persecuted Church in Rome, afterall.

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
(Romans 13)

We are not God that we should chose leaders based on our own desires. Israel tried that, and God gave them what they thought they wanted. What they needed was the Lordship of God. What they got was a human king. "For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
(Matthew 28)

 

[Secundulus]

Romans 13 talks about rulers, in general, and the Christian attitude towards them. Let's not forget the context - Paul wrote to the persecuted Church in Rome, afterall.


We are not God that we should chose leaders based on our own desires. Israel tried that, and God gave them what they thought they wanted. What they needed was the Lordship of God. What they got was a human king. "For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

Agreed. It is interesting to go all the way back and look at the scriptures that speak of the origin of secular government.

"Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations." But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the Lord. The Lord said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them." (1 Samuel 8:4-7, NASB95)

So much of the separation of Church and State.

The government, even our government, is a judgement on our unbelief.

 

[intricatic]

Agreed. It is interesting to go all the way back and look at the scriptures that speak of the origin of secular government.

"Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations." But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the Lord. The Lord said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them." (1 Samuel 8:4-7, NASB95)

So much of the separation of Church and State.

The government, even our government, is a judgement on our unbelief.

Indeed. I don't have much concern for who is or is not in power at a given time, because all government is the same when it's run by men. The government I swear allegiance to is not run by men.

 

[Cris413]

I saw these verses in an letter/article written to Obama from Chuck Norris. Great verse, good article too. Seemed a good one to share here

1 Timothy 2

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
​

Pray, pray, pray! Through Christ Jesus all things are possible, Praise God


Here is the article if anyone is interested:
Obama, now that you work for me ...
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80577

Wow...I always liked Chuck...and not simply because he played a Texas Ranger on television...

Chuck put into words my thoughts EXACTLY...and much better than I ever could have!

Awesome Scripture and call to prayer....

 

[Nadiine]

Indeed. I don't have much concern for who is or is not in power at a given time, because all government is the same when it's run by men. The government I swear allegiance to is not run by men.

I disagree, all govt. isn't the same --

I can pray to God and worship God at church here - they cant' do that in China under Chinese govt. dictatorship.

Pres. Bush isn't the same as Nero was and there are many contrasts to different types of govt's. that are evil and that are not.

Christians are under Christ, but I"m not outside the political process being in a democracy. There are good, bad and worse leaders a nation can have - the people can elect the type they'll get.
We got Obama - so be it.

I still claim the nation deserves him. (and it pains me to say it)

 

[Zecryphon]

Indeed. I don't have much concern for who is or is not in power at a given time, because all government is the same when it's run by men. The government I swear allegiance to is not run by men.

That's kind of a sexist attitude to have. I suppose govt. would be much better if it were run by women? Which govt. is it you're swearing allegiance to?

 

[MaidforHim]

Romans 13 talks about rulers, in general, and the Christian attitude towards them. Let's not forget the context - Paul wrote to the persecuted Church in Rome, afterall.


We are not God that we should chose leaders based on our own desires. Israel tried that, and God gave them what they thought they wanted. What they needed was the Lordship of God. What they got was a human king. "For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

Romans 13 may talk about rulers in general, but there are other verses that speak about rulers in general that say something different. Since the Bible does not contradict itself there must be some situations where some rulers are evil and to be defeated. If not, then what do these verses mean?

Psalm 149
1Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
2Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
3Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
4For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
5Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
7To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
8To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
9To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

This certainly is not showing respect to someone's ruler, a ruler God appointed. God appoints a people the ruler they deserve. That does not mean that at some point during that rulers reign God will not appoint a people to defeat that evil ruler.

In fact a ruler doesn't necessarily have to be a HUGE villan in the scope of history for God to call a people to separate themselves from him/her like in the case with the founding fathers of our nation. They chose to liberate themselves from English rule and I believe it was God's will for them to do so.

So it seems as though Roman's 13 does not cover every situation in full. While our founding fathers should have paid what ever respect, fear or honour was due to the King of England at that time, that does not mean they were not called to separate our nation from his rule.

A God fearing people can't blindly follow a ruler if he/she asks or requires the to do things that are against God's law or instruction. Like in the case of China's one child rule and forced abortions. If you were living in China and expecting a second child would you abort it just because the government told you to? I think there is a line here and although it's a bit confusing in regards to some situtation in others it seems pretty clear that follow a ruler only extends as far as his directions do not violate what God instructs.

Danielle was repsectful to the kings he found himself serving under, but he also did not obey every single edict they passed even though those kings were put in power by God. God doesn't contradict Himself so I don't believe He would expect us to follow a ruler in a way that would cause us to do something that God Himself would disapprove of.

 

[NorrinRadd]

That's kind of a sexist attitude to have. I suppose govt. would be much better if it were run by women? Which govt. is it you're swearing allegiance to?

Our Kingdom is not of this world, and as Xians we are not to swear oaths. The only reason I am even marginally willing to say the "Pledge of Allegiance" is its late inclusion of "under God." Other than that, I remind myself not to have any "allegiance" to this or any country.

 

[intricatic]

I disagree, all govt. isn't the same --

I can pray to God and worship God at church here - they cant' do that in China under Chinese govt. dictatorship.

Pres. Bush isn't the same as Nero was and there are many contrasts to different types of govt's. that are evil and that are not.

Christians are under Christ, but I"m not outside the political process being in a democracy. There are good, bad and worse leaders a nation can have - the people can elect the type they'll get.
We got Obama - so be it.

I still claim the nation deserves him. (and it pains me to say it)

Political persecution comes in many forms. Some appears dramatically anti-Christian, while the more deceptive form seems terribly pro-Christian. Israel thought their God-ordained king would be a good change from no human king, but they were entirely wrong when you consider it meant a rejection of God in the first place.

 

[intricatic]

Romans 13 may talk about rulers in general, but there are other verses that speak about rulers in general that say something different. Since the Bible does not contradict itself there must be some situations where some rulers are evil and to be defeated. If not, then what do these verses mean?

Psalm 149
1Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
2Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
3Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
4For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
5Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
7To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
8To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
9To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

This certainly is not showing respect to someone's ruler, a ruler God appointed. God appoints a people the ruler they deserve. That does not mean that at some point during that rulers reign God will not appoint a people to defeat that evil ruler.

In fact a ruler doesn't necessarily have to be a HUGE villan in the scope of history for God to call a people to separate themselves from him/her like in the case with the founding fathers of our nation. They chose to liberate themselves from English rule and I believe it was God's will for them to do so.

So it seems as though Roman's 13 does not cover every situation in full. While our founding fathers should have paid what ever respect, fear or honour was due to the King of England at that time, that does not mean they were not called to separate our nation from his rule.

A God fearing people can't blindly follow a ruler if he/she asks or requires the to do things that are against God's law or instruction. Like in the case of China's one child rule and forced abortions. If you were living in China and expecting a second child would you abort it just because the government told you to? I think there is a line here and although it's a bit confusing in regards to some situtation in others it seems pretty clear that follow a ruler only extends as far as his directions do not violate what God instructs.

Danielle was repsectful to the kings he found himself serving under, but he also did not obey every single edict they passed even though those kings were put in power by God. God doesn't contradict Himself so I don't believe He would expect us to follow a ruler in a way that would cause us to do something that God Himself would disapprove of.

To understand kings in ancient Israel, you have first to understand what God's position over Israel was before any king came onto the scene. God gives rulers to men who are stubborn and hard of heart, who need a human representative on Earth to rule them. God gave Jesus all authority in Heaven and Earth to rule, thus, even though some men will still swear allegiance to earthly rulers, no ruler has any real authority aside from Christ and God. Therefore, following God means respecting the only authority that truly exists, and as such, you will not offend the worldly leaders who would usurp that authority. If they still oppose you, you will not give them much to blame you for, provided your only allegiance is to God, and God is the only one you care to please.

Romans 13 ends:

14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
(Romans 13)

 

[intricatic]

That's kind of a sexist attitude to have. I suppose govt. would be much better if it were run by women? Which govt. is it you're swearing allegiance to?

Sexism is irrelevancy and politic. I don't discriminate against either of the sexes, they are both depraved.

 

[CADude12]

"Render unto Caesar" or unto Obama, if you must.

...and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

I think the NIV is better here, avoiding the misunderstandings about "the flesh". The Lord of Lords, and King of Kings calls men, even if they do not know it (Isaiah 45).

 

[rrguy]

Wow...I always liked Chuck...and not simply because he played a Texas Ranger on television...

Chuck put into words my thoughts EXACTLY...and much better than I ever could have!

Awesome Scripture and call to prayer....

X2 Awesome

 

[Jesus Is Real]

However....


2Sa 22:31 As for God, His way is perfect;
The word of the LORD is proven;
He is a shield to all who trust in Him.

Cris,

We are going to need to really know God's Word like 2Sa 22:31, when the Change-Globalist come and put to death many of us Christians when we will not fully conform to it's new world order system - Transformational Marxism. It's all about CHANGE.

Ever wonder why it, in schools, it use to be called "Traditional Education" and just a few years ago it's now named, "Transformational Education"? The Whole World has bought into the "Human Relations in Cirriculum Change" text books. It was proven and discovered that the men who wrote this book were Marxist's. But they were Transformational Marxists - they were into brainwashing the masses to conformity. Like Satan and how did did with Eve and tried to do with Jesus. To say the least.

Obama's "Universal" Service Plan - Part 1
Training a Socialist Army of World Servers
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/08/1-service.htm

Communism, Communitarianism & The Third Way
http://www.crossroad.to/News/communitarianism.html

 

[intricatic]

"Render unto Caesar" or unto Obama, if you must.

...and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

I think the NIV is better here, avoiding the misunderstandings about "the flesh". The Lord of Lords, and King of Kings calls men, even if they do not know it (Isaiah 45).

Well, you get this whole "The flesh is evil" thing when you encounter people who think the material world is bad, but I disagree. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's - but what is Caesar's? Surely not the coin made from the very metals God created and claims for His own. I always did like Isaiah - he always cut straight through the wool and fluff.

 

[ContraMundum]

This thead has a lot of pretty crazy and uneducated ideas about politics. Obama is "socialist"? LOL! He's economically way to the right of the most right-wing parties in other countries. In fact, both parties in the USA are considered to be very right-wing by other nations. I think it's pretty obvious too. All you need to do is compare their platforms to the platforms of the most right-wing parties in Europe and you'll figure out in about ten minutes that the USA is not going to slide into a European mixed-economy under this new President-elect. C'mon people- stop the panic. We've all seen this before, and it never warrants the unfaithful panicky reactions that the unsaved have. Let's not buy into scare tactics and follow the Lord.

I guess it's probably a relative set of ideals? As most of the posters here reside in the USA, perhaps some political myopia is to be expected. Everybody has it in some degree. When I lived in Asia, people thought that the US was hell-bent on spreading US culture - "the three S' " -as they called it. Of course, it wasn't true but from their own myopic point of view it looked like impending doom for their culture from an onslaught of bad tv US shows and crude content in movies. It never happened, nor will it.Their cultures have survived our indecent assault. We all need to learn more about the things the worry us before we go into a panicky tailspin about them. That's my take on portions of this thread.

 

[icedtea]

You mean he isn't going to appoint Bill Ayres a diplomat?

 

[ContraMundum]

You mean he isn't going to appoint Bill Ayres a diplomat?

 

[Nadiine]

This thead has a lot of pretty crazy and uneducated ideas about politics. Obama is "socialist"? LOL! He's economically way to the right of the most right-wing parties in other countries. In fact, both parties in the USA are considered to be very right-wing by other nations. I think it's pretty obvious too. All you need to do is compare their platforms to the platforms of the most right-wing parties in Europe and you'll figure out in about ten minutes that the USA is not going to slide into a European mixed-economy under this new President-elect. C'mon people- stop the panic. We've all seen this before, and it never warrants the unfaithful panicky reactions that the unsaved have. Let's not buy into scare tactics and follow the Lord.

I guess it's probably a relative set of ideals? As most of the posters here reside in the USA, perhaps some political myopia is to be expected. Everybody has it in some degree. When I lived in Asia, people thought that the US was hell-bent on spreading US culture - "the three S' " -as they called it. Of course, it wasn't true but from their own myopic point of view it looked like impending doom for their culture from an onslaught of bad tv US shows and crude content in movies. It never happened, nor will it.Their cultures have survived our indecent assault. We all need to learn more about the things the worry us before we go into a panicky tailspin about them. That's my take on portions of this thread.

You can't assure anyone that what we dislike and don't want for the nations ISN'T going to happen can you? Nope.
And where do you live? The United Nations? You don't live in the USA do you?

Most people who like a certain political party or ideal or are too blind to see past their front door don't feel any threat by it - alot of people won't feel any threat by this far left liberal leader.
We do and for good reason - read his voting record and look at his personal and political friends.

We have plenty of evidence to feel threat from his ideals. His first agenda is to start stem cell research. He's already proving us right.