I myself am not under the law

[Oldmantook]

Does Theology deal primarily with Facts, using such things as Scripture in order to demonstrate the Truth, or Theory, using such things as Assumption, Allusion, when attempting to demonstrate a point about some Truth?





This is a three part statement, therefore I will speak to all three statements separately
1) For the believer, the law is written upon the heart

What have you put forth to prove this Theory?

2) But that does not mean the law is abolished

It appears as though this statement has no purpose other than to elicit Debate.
You have only voiced an opinion at this point.....Again this it Theory.

3) it still exists upon our hearts.

Same as above, nothing to prove the statement....only opinion....Theory.





Another unverified two part statement.

1) The Levitical law is written upon the heart of a regenerated believer

Is it possible to demonstrate this Theory clearly, by the use of Scripture?

2) BUT each believer has the choice of whether to obey the law by sinning or not sinning against it.

This statement is a whole subject all on it's own.
Your contention is, Believers once Regenerated, not only continue to commit sin, but willfully chose to sin.



Another two part statement.
1) WE can grieve or not grieve the Holy Spirit.

In this you are correct, we can either Grieve or not Grieve the Holy Spirit, but the overwhelming posture of the Regenerated Believer is not to be in the position for Grieving the Holy Spirit to take place.

2) We can choose to live according to the flesh or live according to the Spirit.

In this statement you have clarified your belief, a Regenerated Believer can chose to Grieve or not Grieve the Holy Spirit, which coincides with your statement regarding the Regenerated Believer willfully sinning.

Is there a demonstration of such an eventuality from Scripture?





Two Parts.
1) An unbeliever on the other hand can only live according to the flesh

This is a true statement, no argument here.

2) since he (The Un-Believer) has not been regenerated in the spirit.

What then is the point, or even the advantage to be Regenerated Believer, if according to your Theory, the Regenerated Believe still chooses to live in the Flesh from time to time, or to some extent on a daily basis?

I do not see any marked difference between the Regenerated Believer and the Un-Believer at this point, their behavior is no different that the other.
Both Sin.



Is there Teaching on your statements, any documentation which would buttress anything you have said?

Rather than respond to each of your queries which would be unproductive for me, just give me one objection which you think I should respond to lest this discussion go into rabbit trails.

 

[DamianWarS]

What do you see as the significance difference between being lawful to Christ and being under the law of Christ? Or between not being lawless to God and not breaking the law of God? Obedience is to the law.

Paul is not addressing the law he is address God. You've conflated this with the law of Moses but still have not shown where it says this. Obedience to the levitical law is arbitrary without the temple sacrifice.

 

[DamianWarS]

Since it is fulfilled, do we no longer need to obey it? Yes or No?

it means your question has missed the point.

 

[crossnote]

Paul is quoted saying this in 1 Cor 9:20. My question is which law is he referring to? Torah/Mosaic law or something else?

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. (1Co 9:20)

Law here is used in the sense as that instrument which some use to attain righteousness. In this sense...

Romans 9:32 (KJV) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[Soyeong]

Paul is not addressing the law he is address God. You've conflated this with the law of Moses but still have not shown where it says this.

Can you given some examples of how can someone be be considered to lawful Christ without that involving following Christ's laws? And some examples of how someone can be not lawless to God while there are laws that God has given that they are not following?

Obedience to the levitical law is arbitrary without the temple sacrifice.

The Israelite were given laws before they had entered that land that they were only supposed to follow once they had entered it. Likewise, when they were in exile in Babylon the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to the Mosaic Law, which requires them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access to while they were in exile, so that wasn't a problem.

 

[not under law]

Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and a Christian is someone who seeks to follow what Christ taught by word and by example. Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations before the end (Matthew 24:12-14). So for Gentiles, it is about seeing what Christ Jesus followed and taught by word and by example and deciding whether or not to become his follower. We are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to follow Paul's example for he followed the example of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1).

Our conscience is informed by the highest level or moral law that we believe. However, our conscience part of our fallen nature, so it is not perfect, which is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:3 that even though he was not aware of anything against himself he was not justified. So our conscience helps us to live in accordance with the moral law, but it does not replace it, and therefore is not the ultimate determiner of our spiritual condition. Our conscience is capable of warning us when our spiritual condition is in danger, but it is not God's law, and needs to be informed by God's law in order to function correctly.

In Romans 14, there are weak Christians whose conscience is not informed in a mature way, where their conscience won't let them do what they really would be free to do, so again our conscience does not replace God's law. Someone's conscience can be so misinformed that their glory is in their shame (Philippians 3:19), where both their mind and their conscience are defiled (Titus 1:15). So the first way to destroy the work of conscience is to misinform it where you don't give it the true law of God and the second way is to silence it when it speaks. In 1 Timothy 4:2, Paul spoke about a wounded or seared conscience, and a good indicator of this is if someone sees nothing wrong with continuing to do what God has revealed in His law to be sin. The New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so if someone is not experiencing that, then perhaps they should ponder whether they are part of the New Covenant.

You cannot hide from law written in your mind and placed on your heart. Your conscience cannot ignore it when it is put there. God made a full proof covenant, there are no holes in it. The law in your heart and mind, is far more potent than a law engraved in stone and written on parchments. And what is in your mind you in your mind must know, and law in your heart must bring consciousness of sin if you do not follow it. It is no longer a law written in ink for the believer but one written on tablets of human hearts.
If your view is correct, as I previously explained to you, I could not be a Christian, neither could anyone who had no consciousness of sin by failing to observe Torah.

 

[not under law]

You may clarify if you wish in order that I can respond specifically to your question or claim.

''I realise that what I will again write is not for those who love to theologically debate which laws a Christian is to follow, however, I will once again repeat it. Under the new covenant the law God wants you to follow is written in your mind and placed on your heart by God Himself(Jeremiah31, Heb8&10) Through the law we become conscious of sin(rom 3:20)
Therefore, according to basic biblical facts, you must be conscious in your mind and heart as to what sin is. And therefore, if you fail to follow the law within you, you must be conscious of sin by doing so in your heart and mind. Neither you or I are conscious we sin by failing to follow the Levitical law. So, if we accept the new covenant, and the fact the law makes us conscious of sin, there is only two possibilities here. Either the Levitical law has not been written in the hearts and minds of believers, or, no one can be a Christian unless they are conscious they sin by failing to follow that law. If the latter were true, the majority of churches in my country and yours would cease to exist.''

The point being made was, if Torah is written in a believers mind and placed on their heart, no one could be a christian unless they were conscious they sinned by failing to follow it.

 

[DamianWarS]

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. (1Co 9:20)

Law here is used in the sense as that instrument which some use to attain righteousness. In this sense...

Romans 9:32 (KJV) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Law is being identified as the mission not the instrument.

 

[crossnote]

Law is being identified as the mission not the instrument.

If so, it is a failed mission...

Romans 8:3 KJV
[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus alone completed that mission.

 

[DamianWarS]

Can you given some examples of how can someone be be considered to lawful Christ without that involving following Christ's laws? And some examples of how someone can be not lawless to God while there are laws that God has given that they are not following

Lawful to Christ is following Christ's law... but I'll give you an example how we can go against the letter of the Torah while being lawful to Christ.

I may honor a family by eating pork served to me at home I'm invited into.

The Israelite were given laws before they had entered that land that they were only supposed to follow once they had entered it. Likewise, when they were in exile in Babylon the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to the Mosaic Law, which requires them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access to while they were in exile, so that wasn't a problem.

They were incomplete without the temple.

 

[DamianWarS]

If so, it is a failed mission...

Romans 8:3 KJV
[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus alone completed that mission.

Completion of the law is not the mission, and you're right Jesus completed that. The people under the law are the mission (as well as those not under the law). Becoming as like one under law or as like one not under law is the mission strategy. The instrument of the gospel however is Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

I may honor a family by eatting pork served to me at home I'm invited into.

A number of God's laws appear to conflict with each other, such as what happened when someone wanted to circumcise their baby on the 8th day and it happened to fall on the Sabbath. However, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by breaking one of the two commandments no matter what they choose to do, but that one of the commandments was never intended to prevent the other from being obeyed, so someone who circumcised their baby on the Sabbath would still be acting in accordance with the Mosaic Law and would not be acting lawlessly to God. This is why priests were held innocent for performing their duties on the Sabbath, why David and his men were held innocent for eating the bread of the Presence, and why Jesus defended the innocence of his disciples in Matthew 12:3-7. So I'm not asking about examples where one law is greater than another, but examples of how someone can straight up refuse to submit to one of God's laws under any circumstances and still be considered to not be lawless to God.

They were incomplete without the temple.

Keeping the Sabbath only under the condition that it is the 7th day does not mean that they were incomplete during the other six days.

 

[DamianWarS]

A number of God's laws appear to conflict with each other, such as what happened when someone wanted to circumcise their baby on the 8th day and it happened to fall on the Sabbath. However, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by breaking one of the two commandments no matter what they choose to do, but that one of the commandments was never intended to prevent the other from being obeyed, so someone who circumcised their baby on the Sabbath would still be acting in accordance with the Mosaic Law and would not be acting lawlessly to God. This is why priests were held innocent for performing their duties on the Sabbath, why David and his men were held innocent for eating the bread of the Presence, and why Jesus defended the innocence of his disciples in Matthew 12:3-7. So I'm not asking about examples where one law is greater than another, but examples of how someone can straight up refuse to submit to one of God's laws under any circumstances and still be considered to not be lawless to God.

And if I live among the unlawful called there for life? Am I the exception to the law then?

Keeping the Sabbath only under the condition that it is the 7th day does not mean that they were incomplete during the other six days.

They always longed for the temple, always wanting it. Without the temple they were lost, regardless how much the kept the Sabbath.

 

[JIMINZ]

Rather than respond to each of your queries which would be unproductive for me, just give me one objection which you think I should respond to lest this discussion go into rabbit trails.

You have already answered what I was asking, your not interested in seeking the truth of an issue, you interested in Debating Theology.

You have made numerous broad statements as though they were fact and you never once gave any kind of verification for those erroneous statements.

Anyone can stir the pot and come up with their opinions and any given subject, that is all I heard you doing voicing your opinions on may different subject as though what you were saying was truth, but I failed to see anything to bolster those opinions.

My post spoke directly to ever single statement you have made, and you want me now to tell you which of my objections you should respond to.

Pick one, any one, and expound on it and give some sort of proof of your Theory on why what you have said is truth.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello.

Just testing a signature.

 

[Oldmantook]

it means your question has missed the point.

How so may I ask? I also asked you a very simple question which you neglected to answer.

 

[DamianWarS]

How so may I ask? I also asked you a very simple question which you neglected to answer.

Are we under law of Moses? No. Are we lawless? No.

 

[Oldmantook]

''I realise that what I will again write is not for those who love to theologically debate which laws a Christian is to follow, however, I will once again repeat it. Under the new covenant the law God wants you to follow is written in your mind and placed on your heart by God Himself(Jeremiah31, Heb8&10) Through the law we become conscious of sin(rom 3:20)
Therefore, according to basic biblical facts, you must be conscious in your mind and heart as to what sin is. And therefore, if you fail to follow the law within you, you must be conscious of sin by doing so in your heart and mind. Neither you or I are conscious we sin by failing to follow the Levitical law. So, if we accept the new covenant, and the fact the law makes us conscious of sin, there is only two possibilities here. Either the Levitical law has not been written in the hearts and minds of believers, or, no one can be a Christian unless they are conscious they sin by failing to follow that law. If the latter were true, the majority of churches in my country and yours would cease to exist.''

The point being made was, if Torah is written in a believers mind and placed on their heart, no one could be a christian unless they were conscious they sinned by failing to follow it.

If I understand you correctly, you propose an either-or dilemma. I propose that it is both. An unsaved person upon becoming saved is made conscious of the fact that he is a sinner when he realizes he has fallen short of the law and is thus a sinner in need of forgiveness. I think we both agree on that point.
Not sure you agree on this point that upon regeneration, the newly saved person now has the Levitical law written upon his heart. Since the law is in his heart he is able to do God's will - as instructed by the law. The Law or Torah simply means "instruction." The law which was formerly written on tablets of stone are now written in the hearts of believers that they might follow it.

 

[Oldmantook]

Are we under law of Moses? No. Are we lawless? No.

How can you not be under the law when the law instructs us as to what constitutes as sin? How can you know that you are not lawless unless you are aware of the law? Lawless after all, means WITHOUT THE LAW thus you are lawless since you no longer consider yourself under the law of Moses. Do you still abide by the 10 commandments or do you no longer consider yourself under it?
Your answers are very problematic.

 

[JIMINZ]

For the believer, the law is written upon the heart but that does not mean the law is abolished - it still exists upon our hearts.

Who said anything about abolished? The law is fulfilled, it is not abolished.

1Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom. 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.