I know why Jesus has not returned yet!

[lismore]

Elementary and essential are two different things..

Elementary simply means basic. Essential means necessary..

According to dictionary.com Elementary can be translated basic or essential yes. Can you drive around without the basic parts of a car? Can you build a building without foundations?

While your flawed translation of this text may say elementary, nowhere in this text does it say that these things are essential.
.

Faith in God is not essential?

That's fine, but neither of these verses say that these things are essential and, in any event, we're not talking about these two verses, but Hebrews 6:1-2.
things are essential.
.

It says teaching on baptisms is one of the elementary teachings of the faith, the basics you must understand before you can proceed. Now, is the baptism of the Holy Spirit not a Baptism? regardless of you being a cessationalist, this does not change scripture. According to the bible the teaching on the baptism of the Holy SPirit as proven by the references I gave you are one of the six foundational doctrines of the faith

What part of "In fact, this passage isn't even referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it's commonly practiced in the church today" did you not get?
.

Which part of: 'this passage is assuredly referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it's commonly practiced in the church today' dont you get?

Are you saying that those who disagree with your interpretation of these things are not Christians?
.

As I already said, those who reject some of the foundational teachings of the faith, at best can be called misinformed.

Again, elementary and essential are two different things.
.

I maintain they are the same. Elementary, basic, foundational things are essential.

Main Entry: el·e·men·ta·ry
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: "e-l&-'men-t&-re, -'men-tre</I>
1 a : of, relating to, or dealing with the simplest elements
.

Precisely

Do you know what is meant when we talk about the essentials? If you don't, and it does appear that you do, you really shouldn't be accusing someone of not holding to them.

So far I have not accused anyone of that, so far all I have said is that the Baptism of the Holy SPirit as referenced by 'Baptisms' in hebrews 6, is one of the key doctrines of the Christian faith.

Look at it in the KJV:

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ
let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation........

The foundation, the essentials!

God Bless You

 

[BenAdam]

No vitriol. I'm just asking you a simply question.



I didn't say it wasn't important .

I asked if you know what is meant by the phrase, "essential doctrines of the faith."

Well the essential doctine of faith is No man comes to the Father but by Me. Everything is secondary to that.

 

[lismore]

Well the essential doctine of faith is No man comes to the Father but by Me. Everything is secondary to that.

Hey now Mike McK says we are not allowed to look at any scriptures ecxept Hebrews 6:1-3!

In the context of hebrews 6 it lists 6 'foundational' doctrines of Christ.

1) repentance from useless rituals
2) faith in God
3) teachings on baptisms
4) The laying on of hands
5) resurrection of the dead
6) final judgement

He is now arguing that foundations are not essential. I wouldnt want to live in his house.

 

[Christina M]

No vitriol. I'm just asking you a simply question.

Sorry Mike, but your post here: "OK. Now that we've established that Lismore doesn't know what is meant by "essentials of the faith", do you?" is pretty mean and unnecessary.

Dictionary definition of 'vitriol': Bitterly abusive feeling or expression

 

[BenAdam]

Hey now Mike McK says we are not allowed to look at any scriptures ecxept Hebrews 6:1-3!

In the context of hebrews 6 it lists 6 'foundational' doctrines of Christ.

1) repentance from useless rituals
2) faith in God
3) teachings on baptisms
4) The laying on of hands
5) resurrection of the dead
6) final judgement

He is now arguing that foundations are not essential. I wouldnt want to live in his house.

Lismore,

Funny thing, even the foundation relys on something, the Chief Cornerstone upon which all else is built, even the foundation.

 

[lismore]

Lismore,

Funny thing, even the foundation relys on something, the Chief Cornerstone upon which all else is built, even the foundation.

Yes. I agree 110%. But I still dont see how foundations are not essentials?

 

[BenAdam]

Yes. I agree 110%. But I still dont see how foundations are not essentials?

All foundations are equal, just some are more equal than others.

With all apologies to George Orwell.


Seriously, because without Jesus, the foundation would be off.

 

[probinson]

Yes. I agree 110%. But I still dont see how foundations are not essentials?

Beats the heck outta me. I took architectural design for 12 weeks. They thought foundations were pretty important (essential). They didn't recommend building anything without a foundation.

 

[lismore]

All foundations are equal, just some are more equal than others.

With all apologies to George Orwell.


Seriously, because without Jesus, the foundation would be off.

But Jesus said:

John 14:15 NIV
[ Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit ] "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

People who say they love Jesus and then resist the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus fool themselves that they love Jesus. Jesus said if you love me you will do what I command..................and he commands them to pray for and receive the Holy Spirit.

16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever&#8212; 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

 

[BenAdam]

But Jesus said:

John 14:15 NIV
[ Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit ] "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

People who say they love Jesus and then resist the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus fool themselves that they love Jesus. Jesus said if you love me you will do what I command..................and he commands them to pray for and receive the Holy Spirit.

16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever&#8212; 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

I don't think anyone is saying we should resist the Holy Spirit.

 

[probinson]

For anyone saying that something that the Bible calls a "foundational doctrine" is not "essential", I have a challenge for you...

Go build a house.

On the sand.

Without a foundation.

At high tide in a storm.

Maybe then you'll see how "essential" that foundation is for that house to be able to stand in the midst of the storm and the waves.

 

[BenAdam]

For anyone saying that something that the Bible calls a "foundational doctrine" is not "essential", I have a challenge for you...

Go build a house.

On the sand.

Without a foundation.

At high tide in a storm.

Maybe then you'll see how "essential" that foundation is for that house to be able to stand in the midst of the storm and the waves.

Pete, my contention is this:

Without the cornerstone, the rest of the foundation is academic. Only with the cornerstone can the foundation truely work.

 

[probinson]

Pete, my contention is this:

Without the cornerstone, the rest of the foundation is academic. Only with the cornerstone can the foundation truely work.

And I agree. But the foundation is no less essential than the cornerstone.

 

[lismore]

I don't think anyone is saying we should resist the Holy Spirit.

What part of "In fact, this passage isn't even referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it's commonly practiced in the church today" did you not get?
.

Mike is resisting the baptism of the Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit.

Unless gentleness is no longer a fruit of the Spirit?

 

[BenAdam]

And I agree. But the foundation is no less essential than the cornerstone.

Well, isn't the whole building essential? I mean, without walls, no roof.

 

[lismore]

Pete, my contention is this:

Without the cornerstone, the rest of the foundation is academic. Only with the cornerstone can the foundation truely work.

I agree, but its not an either/or. You can have Jesus and the Holy Spirit too! And you can even have Christian teaching as well as Jesus! None of these things are competing with each other

 

[MikeMcK]

Faith in God is not essential?

No, we're talking about specific doctrines.

Do you know what is meant by the phrase, "essential doctrines of the faith"?

It says teaching on baptisms is one of the elementary teachings of the faith, the basics you must understand before you can proceed.

Yes, you've made that perfectly clear.

The fact remains that there is a difference between elementary and essential.

regardless of you being a cessationalist,

Well, first of all, you know very well that I am not a cessationalist (sic). I believe you know that I attend a church that, while not a charismatic church, is certainly sympathetic to charismatic doctrine. I also believe that you know that I believe very strongly in the perpetuity of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and have defeded them on many occassions.

As I already said, those who reject some of the foundational teachings of the faith, at best can be called misinformed.

I'm not asking you "at best". I asking you "as a general rule".

I maintain they are the same. Elementary, basic, foundational things are essential.

And I maintain that elementary means basic and essential means necessary.

Precisely

Excellent. Now that we're agreed that the dictionary does not define "elementary" as essential, your point is moot.

[/quote]

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ
let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation........

The foundation, the essentials!

God Bless You[/quote]

And, once again, you show that you do not know what is meant by the essentials.

 

[MikeMcK]

Unless gentleness is no longer a fruit of the Spirit?

I see. So then, when someone says that they do not understand something, what is it, exactly, that is "ungentle" about asking them to clarify what they don't understand so that you can better explain it to them?

 

[lismore]

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ
let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation........

The foundation, the essentials!

And, once again, you show that you do not know what is meant by the essentials.

Hebrews 6:1-3 gives 6 doctrines it says are foundations for believers to be taught. What exactly is your beef with this?

You didnt answer me on how churches today dont practise the baptism in the Holy Spirit in the right way..............

You didnt answer me why foundations are not essentials? Are foundational doctrines not vital for a new believer to be taught? Why not? Why cant they be taught these doctrines?

 

[lismore]

I see. So then, when someone says that they do not understand something, what is it, exactly, that is "ungentle" about asking them to clarify what they don't understand so that you can better explain it to them?

Actually it was me who asked for clarification and you who refused to give it:

In fact, this passage isn't even referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it's commonly practiced in the church today.

. Please explain your statement .

What part of "In fact, this passage isn't even referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it's commonly practiced in the church today" did you not get?.

I didnt understand your statement at all, thats why I asked. Without giving clarification, you then started ranting and raving:

OK. Now that we've established that Lismore doesn't know what is meant by "essentials of the faith", do you?

Now can you please explain your twice given statement on the churches and the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Peace man, I cant get a handle on what you're saying at all (maybe because you arent saying anything, only pulling down what I say)