I know why Jesus has not returned yet!

MikeMcK · Jun 14, 2006

Tatu said:
Adrian Rogers was a good man, but he was a Southern Baptist who denied the modern-day gifts of the Holy Spirit, wasn't he?

Sounds like he was already in error to me. That's a pretty big issue.

First of all, not all Southern Baptists deny the modern day gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Second, that is a non-essential and not heretical.

probinson · Jun 15, 2006

MikeMcK said:
First of all, not all Southern Baptists deny the modern day gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Second, that is a non-essential and not heretical.

It seems we've moved the goalposts yet again.

We were talking about teaching that was in error. Now it's only relevant if it's "heretical".

Huh?

Simon_Templar · Jun 15, 2006

So Mike,

I may have missed it, but my curiosity is piqued.. what heresy do you think Hagee is teaching?

I don't know all of his view points but he seems pretty standard southern fare from what I've seen. (not saying I agree with that.. just that I haven't seen anything strikingly different from him than from most others).

Tatu · Jun 15, 2006

Yeah, interesting.

Tatu · Jun 15, 2006

Mike, where did you go? And why do you have zero blessings now?

MikeMcK · Jun 15, 2006

Tatu said:
Mike, where did you go?

Nowhere.

And why do you have zero blessings now?

Some of us like to give our blessings to other posters when we feel that they need encouragement.

MikeMcK · Jun 15, 2006

Simon_Templar said:
So Mike,

I may have missed it, but my curiosity is piqued.. what heresy do you think Hagee is teaching?

I don't know all of his view points but he seems pretty standard southern fare from what I've seen. (not saying I agree with that.. just that I haven't seen anything strikingly different from him than from most others).

I don't like copy and paste responses but it's late and I'm tired so please forgive my hypocrisy this one time:

http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm

http://www.equip.org/free/DH005.htm

BarbB · Jun 15, 2006

Hi Mike,

I know that John Hagee did not say or mean that Jews get a pass into heaven. It was reported several places that he said that and his people tracked them all down and had them retract the reports. He believes that every person who's going to heaven is getting there through a saving belief in Jesus Christ - no other way. He also believes that the 1/3 remnant of the Jews at the end of the Tribulation will believe in Jesus and be saved.

As for the prosperity and speaking as though it were - I'm disappointed but I don't listen to Hagee for those doctrines - I listen to him for his end times thoughts and his love of Israel!

Oh, your first reference was back to the post which referenced it. Dontcha just hate it when you copy the wrong thing.

Simon_Templar · Jun 16, 2006

The idea of a dual gospel is not all that unheard of among dispensationalists. In particular there is a more extreme group of dispensationalists who discount all the gospels and epistles of Peter as being written only to the jews, while Paul's writings were only to the gentiles.

However, I don't think Hagee goes to that extreme. I can see that alot of the things he has said skirt the line, but are also easy to be explained away.. especially by someone who is not really very careful about what he says, especially when he "gets rolling".

Never the less, dispensationalism in general leans towards the idea that gentiles and jews are treated differently in the Kingdom of heaven.
Jesus died to break down the middle wall of seperation and make of the two, one new man. In the kingdom of heaven, we are all brothers, and all children of abraham.

lismore · Jun 16, 2006

MikeMcK said:
First of all, not all Southern Baptists deny the modern day gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Second, that is a non-essential and not heretical.

Well, we will disagree on that one

I for one will have oil in my lamp.

MikeMcK · Jun 16, 2006

lismore said:
Well, we will disagree on that one

What do you think is meant when Christians talk about the essentials?

Would you please explain how you came to the conclusion that this is an essential doctrine?

lismore · Jun 16, 2006

MikeMcK said:
What do you think is meant when Christians talk about the essentials?

Would you please explain how you came to the conclusion that this is an essential doctrine?

hebrews 6:

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from useless rituals, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an elementary teaching about Christ according to the bible . If anyone denys the basic doctrines of the faith then what faith are they in?

Luke 3:16 NIV
John answered them all, "I baptize you with [ Or in] water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Its an integral part!

MikeMcK · Jun 16, 2006

lismore said:
hebrews 6:

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from useless rituals, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an elementary teaching about Christ according to the bible . If anyone denys the basic doctrines of the faith then what faith are they in?

Nowhere in this passage does it tell us that baptism of of the Holy Spirit is an essential doctrine. In fact, this passage isn't even referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it's commonly practiced in the church today.

Are you implying that those who don't agree with your interpretation are not Christians? Because I don't see any other way to interpret that.

Luke 3:16 NIV[
John answered them all, "I baptize you with [ Or in] water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Its an integral part!

Nowhere in this passage does it tell us that this is an essential doctrine.

Now, I ask you again: do you know what is meant by "essential doctrines". From the above, it doesn't appear that you do.

lismore · Jun 16, 2006

MikeMcK said:
Nowhere in this passage does it tell us that baptism of of the Holy Spirit is an essential doctrine.
.

According to hebrews 6 there are six elementary apostles teachings of the faith:

1) repentance from useless rituals
2) faith in God
3) teachings on baptisms
4) The laying on of hands
5) resurrection of the dead
6) final judgement

The teaching on baptisms according to the bible (Acts 19 1-6, Luke 3:16) is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

MikeMcK said:
In fact, this passage isn't even referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it's commonly practiced in the church today.
.

I am baptized in the Holy Spirit in the same way as Acts . Please explain your statement .

MikeMcK said:
Are you implying that those who don't agree with your interpretation are not Christians? Because I don't see any other way to interpret that.
.

The best you can say for those who oppose the 6 basic doctrines of the faith above is that they are either poorly informed or too lazy to read the word.

MikeMcK said:
Nowhere in this passage does it tell us that this is an essential doctrine.

Now, I ask you again: do you know what is meant by "essential doctrines". From the above, it doesn't appear that you do.

Hebrews 6;1 'Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ' listed above.

el·e·men·ta·ry
Of, relating to, or constituting the basic, essential, or fundamental part.

God Bless You

BenAdam · Jun 16, 2006

Paul seemed to think it was pretty essential as one of the first question he asked a group was Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?

lismore · Jun 16, 2006

BenAdam said:
Paul seemed to think it was pretty essential as one of the first question he asked a group was Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?

Exactly BenAdam. Acts 19. And the men said 'No, we have not even heard there was a Holy Spirit'. Then Paul lays hands on them and they receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues/ prophesy. Peter said in Acts 2 thats its for all! All! Yipee!

MikeMcK · Jun 16, 2006

lismore said:
According to hebrews 6 there are six elementary apostles teachings of the faith:

1) repentance from useless rituals
2) faith in God
3) teachings on baptisms
4) The laying on of hands
5) resurrection of the dead
6) final judgement

Elementary and essential are two different things..

Elementary simply means basic. Essential means necessary.

While your flawed translation of this text may say elementary, nowhere in this text does it say that these things are essential.

The teaching on baptisms according to the bible (Acts 19 1-6, Luke 3:16) is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

That's fine, but neither of these verses say that these things are essential and, in any event, we're not talking about these two verses, but Hebrews 6:1-2.

I am baptized in the Holy Spirit in the same way as Acts.

That's nice, but irrelevant.

Please explain your statement .

What part of "In fact, this passage isn't even referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it's commonly practiced in the church today" did you not get?

The best you can say for those who oppose the 6 basic doctrines of the faith above is that they are either poorly informed or too lazy to read the word.

That wasn't the question.

Are you saying that those who disagree with your interpretation of these things are not Christians?

Hebrews 6;1 'Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ' listed above.

Again, elementary and essential are two different things.

el·e·men·ta·ry
Of, relating to, or constituting the basic, essential, or fundamental part.

Merriam and Webster disagree with you:

Main Entry: el·e·men·ta·ry
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: "e-l&-'men-t&-re, -'men-tre
1 a : of, relating to, or dealing with the simplest elements or principles of something <avoids the most elementary decision-making> b : of or relating to an elementary school <an elementary curriculum>

Do you know what is meant when we talk about the essentials? If you don't, and it does appear that you do, you really shouldn't be accusing someone of not holding to them.

MikeMcK · Jun 16, 2006

BenAdam said:
Paul seemed to think it was pretty essential as one of the first question he asked a group was Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?

OK. Now that we've established that Lismore doesn't know what is meant by "essentials of the faith", do you?

BenAdam · Jun 16, 2006

MikeMcK said:
OK. Now that we've established that Lismore doesn't know what is meant by "essentials of the faith", do you?

Ok Mike, first off, I tend to agree with you alot, so dispense with the vitriol. Second, implication is a powerful tool in language. If a 16 year old told me he was getting a car and I asked them if they had their license, the implication is that a licence is necessary. The Book of Acts implys the importance of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, John the Baptist also mentions One that is coming that will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

MikeMcK · Jun 16, 2006

BenAdam said:
Ok Mike, first off, I tend to agree with you alot, so dispense with the vitriol.

No vitriol. I'm just asking you a simply question.

Second, implication is a powerful tool in language. If a 16 year old told me he was getting a car and I asked them if they had their license, the implication is that a licence is necessary. The Book of Acts implys the importance of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, John the Baptist also mentions One that is coming that will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

I didn't say it wasn't important .

I asked if you know what is meant by the phrase, "essential doctrines of the faith."

I know why Jesus has not returned yet!

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