I know this is audacious to say, but I think EVERYONE (or most) are wrong about Psalm 22:1

Parogar

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This is audacious to say -- even more so because I am such a recent convert. But for the last few hours I've been looking up the highly detailed, highly "descriptive" explanations for why Jesus said on the cross: "My God, my God, why hath you forsaken me? Why art thou far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

There are entire essays written about how this was because the "this" or the "that" or whatever was "separating" from Jesus. It's so confusing I can't even explain it properly. I have an entirely different theory as to why this is in the bible.

One day, when things are not going your way, and you feel like God is ignoring you, or you feel like you've been abandoned, or you even feel in doubt. Try reading the passage in that mindset.

THAT I believe is why it's in the bible: why Jesus Christ said those words. I don't believe he was saying them for himself: but to cast himself as a symbol of the human doubt of God, and the feelings every single one of us must have had at least one point in our life. When you find yourself doubting God, I think those words exist to show that, when God sent his own son down to die in the flesh, in that moment, he expressed doubt too.

There is comfort in that. That you are not a bad person because you have doubts sometimes. Even Jesus had doubts, and Jesus is our Lord and savior. I just don't think that these incredibly detailed "play-by-play" explanations are necessary and I think they might even over-complicate what, when taken in its own context, is a surprisingly simple feeling being conveyed in a way that resonates with (or I believe with) just about anyone.

Who hasn't wondered if God has abandoned them? Who has never doubted? I believe Christ said these words as an example of the salvation that comes even with the doubt.
 

crossnote

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We can at least say that He was fulfilling Scripture...

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? (Psa 22:1)

I would also say that He was forsaken as a man so that we as men won't have to be.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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This is audacious to say -- even more so because I am such a recent convert. But for the last few hours I've been looking up the highly detailed, highly "descriptive" explanations for why Jesus said on the cross: "My God, my God, why hath you forsaken me? Why art thou far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

There are entire essays written about how this was because the "this" or the "that" or whatever was "separating" from Jesus. It's so confusing I can't even explain it properly. I have an entirely different theory as to why this is in the bible.

One day, when things are not going your way, and you feel like God is ignoring you, or you feel like you've been abandoned, or you even feel in doubt. Try reading the passage in that mindset.

THAT I believe is why it's in the bible: why Jesus Christ said those words. I don't believe he was saying them for himself: but to cast himself as a symbol of the human doubt of God, and the feelings every single one of us must have had at least one point in our life. When you find yourself doubting God, I think those words exist to show that, when God sent his own son down to die in the flesh, in that moment, he expressed doubt too.

There is comfort in that. That you are not a bad person because you have doubts sometimes. Even Jesus had doubts, and Jesus is our Lord and savior. I just don't think that these incredibly detailed "play-by-play" explanations are necessary and I think they might even over-complicate what, when taken in its own context, is a surprisingly simple feeling being conveyed in a way that resonates with (or I believe with) just about anyone.

Who hasn't wondered if God has abandoned them? Who has never doubted? I believe Christ said these words as an example of the salvation that comes even with the doubt.
I like your explanation. Your difficulty in accepting the various things you are reading are probably well founded! It's often taught that Jesus suffered full detachment from God while the sin of humanity was placed on Him. Because the Father could not look at sin, He turned away from the Son, and the Son experienced complete disconnection in a way He had never experienced before. This is false. This is why it doesn't sit well with you is my guess.

Jesus was quoting the first line of a "messianic" Psalm as @crossnote mentioned. To the Jews of Jesus' day, to quote one line of the psalm was to quote the entire psalm. The Jews of the day would have memorized psalm 22 and would have known exactly what Jesus was referring to. Now if we read Psalm 22 we don't see any disconnection between Father and Son. The opposite in fact. Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help. The Psalm leads to the opposite conclusion.

It might be helpful to read about atonement theory:
1. Christus Victor Theory
2. Satisfaction Theory
3. Penal Substitution Theory

View 2. and 3. cause problems. Only Christus Victor Theory holds true in my opinion. (Happy to answer any questions about it).
 
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Aryeh

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This is audacious to say -- even more so because I am such a recent convert. But for the last few hours I've been looking up the highly detailed, highly "descriptive" explanations for why Jesus said on the cross: "My God, my God, why hath you forsaken me? Why art thou far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

There are entire essays written about how this was because the "this" or the "that" or whatever was "separating" from Jesus. It's so confusing I can't even explain it properly. I have an entirely different theory as to why this is in the bible.

One day, when things are not going your way, and you feel like God is ignoring you, or you feel like you've been abandoned, or you even feel in doubt. Try reading the passage in that mindset.

THAT I believe is why it's in the bible: why Jesus Christ said those words. I don't believe he was saying them for himself: but to cast himself as a symbol of the human doubt of God, and the feelings every single one of us must have had at least one point in our life. When you find yourself doubting God, I think those words exist to show that, when God sent his own son down to die in the flesh, in that moment, he expressed doubt too.

There is comfort in that. That you are not a bad person because you have doubts sometimes. Even Jesus had doubts, and Jesus is our Lord and savior. I just don't think that these incredibly detailed "play-by-play" explanations are necessary and I think they might even over-complicate what, when taken in its own context, is a surprisingly simple feeling being conveyed in a way that resonates with (or I believe with) just about anyone.

Who hasn't wondered if God has abandoned them? Who has never doubted? I believe Christ said these words as an example of the salvation that comes even with the doubt.

David had the same feelings, but if you taken Psalm 22 and 23 in succession, David reconciled his faith, and neutralized his doubt by remembering who God is.

If Christ wasn't brutally beaten to death, He likely would have recited all of 22, and then 23 as an allusion how to deal with the human issues of worry and doubt in God.
 
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Johnnz

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'Text spotting' is poor exegesis. You must read the Psalm as a whole. It was common practice for a Jewish person to quote a short section from the OT as a devout Jew would immediately understand the context. The Jewish people understood that Psalm as Messianic. By quoting that one verse Jesus was openly identifying Himself as being that person.

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danny ski

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'Text spotting' is poor exegesis. You must read the Psalm as a whole. It was common practice for a Jewish person to quote a short section from the OT as a devout Jew would immediately understand the context. The Jewish people understood that Psalm as Messianic. By quoting that one verse Jesus was openly identifying Himself as being that person.

John
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Would you be so kind and provide some sources from Jesus' time(or before) for that messianic understanding? I'm not aware of future applications of this Psalm except the references to Esther.
 
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farout

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I understand your creative thinking, but a word of caution goes with that. Have you taken the time to review why so many who have said something different? Theologians who have the Language skills most of us don't, have studied the wording of Psalm 22:1. Which of course we have not. I personally when something different comes to mine mind that is almost completely different that what historically is the understanding, I check it out. Then after reading the different commentaries, and other resources if my idea or thought is still valid then I would ask for impute from places like this forum. I would see if there were any objections before making an outright statement that my viewpoint is valid.

My question for you is how much research have you done for your thesis?
 
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Greg J.

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I've always believed Jesus was just exclaiming what he felt, like any of us would. However, everything Jesus said and did sprung from his God-nature. The passage David wrote taught Jesus one way to express himself. It was David that was expressing what God felt, not the other way around.
 
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Johnnz

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Would you be so kind and provide some sources from Jesus' time(or before) for that messianic understanding? I'm not aware of future applications of this Psalm except the references to Esther.

Hi,

I have not annotated references over the years. Sorry about that. The most recent and a very thorough author I have more recently read is N T Wright's. His first of a three part set, 'Jesus and the Victory of God' sets out information that will probably be a worthwhile response to yur question.

John
NZ
 
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Greg J.

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No it wasn't. That cry came from His humanity as the Son of Man. As the Eternal Son he remained inseparable from His Father. The Trinity necessitates that being so. "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself".
Jesus' God-nature and human nature were not separate.
 
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Johnnz

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Jesus' God-nature and human nature were not separate.

I agree but within the context that, until the incarnation, there has never been the perfect human. Jesus as Son of Man brings humanity into relationship with His Father. 'Son of Man' is now within the Godhead. We see this in Hebrews, Jesus as fully human reliant on His Father as he lived within our world.

Heb 2:17-18
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.NIV

Heb 4:15-16
15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are — yet was without sin.NIV

John
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Greg J.

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Let me restate what I meant:

I've always believed Jesus was just exclaiming what he felt, like any of us would. If so, it would be unwarranted to derive much theology from it, other than that he suffered. Those same words have been the automatic reaction of many people in pain since.

The rest of what I wrote was a passing off-topic comment leading elsewhere.
 
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Johnnz

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Hi

But we can't just pass it off as you suggest. There are deep theological issues involved.

If God had forsaken Jesus then the Trinity no longer existed. God as we understand had radically changed.
If Jesus just cried out as any suffering human might then had His trust in God's care for him diminished?

Exegetically I stand by my original comments, Jesus quoted one verse from a Psalm knowing his audience would immediately understand its derivation. It was inserted into the Gospel deliberately as a reference to the entire Psalm.

John
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Greg J.

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If God had forsaken Jesus then the Trinity no longer existed. God as we understand had radically changed.
I did not address the issue of whether God had forsaken Jesus or not. You read more into my statement than that Jesus was expressing his feelings. I referred to his God nature as a lead in to the next sentence. However, his expression sprung forth from his nature, which was both God and human.
If Jesus just cried out as any suffering human might then had His trust in God's care for him diminished?
I did not address whether his trust in God had diminished or not.
If Jesus just
Exegetically I stand by my original comments, Jesus quoted one verse from a Psalm knowing his audience would immediately understand its derivation. It was inserted into the Gospel deliberately as a reference to the entire Psalm.
Jesus may have done this. Where does Scripture say this is the case?
 
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Jesus' God-nature and human nature were not separate.

This is actually why I made this very thread. It was this explanation on Wikipedia that had me come up with my own alternate. I'm glad that, even if I'm wrong, that others don't believe in this one because it's absolutely ridiculous (at least to me).
 
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Johnnz

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Jesus may have done this. Where does Scripture say this is the case?

We know from the many frequent background texts of Jewish origin, that was a common basis for understanding a short quote from a larger section. Just as today the phrase "et tu Brutus" evokes other details of the story.

John
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juvenissun

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Who hasn't wondered if God has abandoned them? Who has never doubted? I believe Christ said these words as an example of the salvation that comes even with the doubt.

The "wonder" and the "doubt" are two different thing.
In Psalm 22:1, David does not "doubt" the existence of God. He just "wonder" WHY didn't God save him.

Same situation in Matt 27:46. Jesus does not "doubt", as a 100% human, He simply "wondered". If He does not have that feeling, then He is not a 100% human.
 
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Soyeong

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This is audacious to say -- even more so because I am such a recent convert. But for the last few hours I've been looking up the highly detailed, highly "descriptive" explanations for why Jesus said on the cross: "My God, my God, why hath you forsaken me? Why art thou far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

There are entire essays written about how this was because the "this" or the "that" or whatever was "separating" from Jesus. It's so confusing I can't even explain it properly. I have an entirely different theory as to why this is in the bible.

One day, when things are not going your way, and you feel like God is ignoring you, or you feel like you've been abandoned, or you even feel in doubt. Try reading the passage in that mindset.

THAT I believe is why it's in the bible: why Jesus Christ said those words. I don't believe he was saying them for himself: but to cast himself as a symbol of the human doubt of God, and the feelings every single one of us must have had at least one point in our life. When you find yourself doubting God, I think those words exist to show that, when God sent his own son down to die in the flesh, in that moment, he expressed doubt too.

There is comfort in that. That you are not a bad person because you have doubts sometimes. Even Jesus had doubts, and Jesus is our Lord and savior. I just don't think that these incredibly detailed "play-by-play" explanations are necessary and I think they might even over-complicate what, when taken in its own context, is a surprisingly simple feeling being conveyed in a way that resonates with (or I believe with) just about anyone.

Who hasn't wondered if God has abandoned them? Who has never doubted? I believe Christ said these words as an example of the salvation that comes even with the doubt.

Most Jews had the Torah memorized by the time they were 12, and those who went on to study under a rabbi would memorize more, such Paul, who would have need to memorize the entire OT in order to become a disciple of Gamaliel (Acts 22:3). When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, he was able to defeat Satan because he quote Deuteronomy from memory. So they lived in a high context society, where someone could quote a single line in order to bring a whole passage to someone's mind, which is why it is generally a good practice to read at least the entire chapter whenever the NT quotes from the OT. This means that Jesus was bringing to mind all of Psalm 22, which was speaking prophetically about what was happening. This does not necessarily mean that Jesus was being separated from God.

I would agree that most people experience doubts at some point in their life, and I think that David was no exception. However, while a sermon could be made out of this about Jesus doubting and while that could be comforting, that is not necessarily what was happening. No one is a bad person simply because they have doubts come to mind, but the problem comes when we act on those doubts.
 
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I agree with your title question, but not your explanation.

There is probably a lot more to it I fully agree with Soyeong statement above and also youareawsome brings up points I agree with.

Psalms 22 is an individual lament that could also be described as Hebrew Diatribe, with the diatribe question being directed toward God.

It is hard for us to appreciate the teaching style of a diatribe used in a Psalm without reading the 70 or so individual Psalms lament diatribes with lots of discussion and understanding among our peers. As has been shown good Jewish men at this time would have studied the Psalms to the point of having them all memorized and it only took the first verse to bring to memory the entire Psalm, so Jesus is not taking one verse out of context but bringing to mine the entire Psalm, but to whom and why?

As others have pointed out this whole Psalm is not showing God left any man at any time, but is with us at all times including being with Christ.

This brings us to the teaching method of Christ. Christ while on the cross also knows the thoughts, words, motive and attitude of everyone there. When asked: Christ does answer, but not necessarily the direct question, so what question could Christ possibly being addressing at this time?

Christ is always serving others, helping individual take the next step in their spiritual growth, so who is this going to help?

The Roman soldiers would not know what he is talking about.

The two thieves have been addressed and this is a scholarly answer.

If it is directed at God himself, Christ did not have to waste his precious breath verbalizing the question and if He feels God has truly left Him then He is talking to the wind?

There are those Jewish “Spiritual” leaders that would readily know Psalms 22 and they are even legitimately asking: “If you are the Christ why can’t you come down from the cross?” and “”you have saved others so why can you not save yourself?” Now you read Psalm 22 as an answer to those questions and you will see Jesus was the Messiah. It would have shut those Jewish hecklers right up.
 
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