I have had to make an adjustment of Ephesians 1:4

[Jack Terrence]

Let me say right off the bat that I am still a Calvinist. But I no longer believe that Ephesians 1:4 supports the teaching that believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It has become clear to me now that Paul was speaking only about the apostolic company. He says that "WE" (the apostles) were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that "YOU" (the Ephesians) were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, and were marked in him when "YOU" believed.

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Verses 1-12 are about the apostles. They were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and were endowed with all spiritual blessings in Christ and were adopted as sons. We know that Paul was speaking about the apostles because he said that God had made known to them the mystery of his will that they might put into effect God's will. Believers did not put God's will into effect. The apostles put God's will into effect. We know too by the phrase "we who FIRST trusted in Christ." It is the apostles who FIRST trusted in Christ.


Verse 13 is about the Ephesians. They were not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world as were the apostles. They were included in Christ "when they heard the message of truth." They were marked in Christ when they believed.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[sdowney717]

This concept though is not understood in a vacuous dearth of other supporting scriptures

As it is also in Rev 17.

The Meaning of the Woman and the Beast
7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.

And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The names of the elect were written beforehand in the Lamb's Book of Life from the beginning.

Perhaps you could argue the apostles chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the earth and believers chosen from the foundation of the earth, but really not a lot of difference there.

 

[sdowney717]

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Reading this I just see Paul saying these new believers are also included in like manner to themselves. Paul is saying 'we were also chosen' referring to them all, that is all believers are included in Christ in the same fashion as they are. We are also the 'first to put our hope in Christ', before His returning.

'The first to put our hope in Christ', well who are the first fruits?
They would be those who believe in Christ before His second coming, the return, afterwards those who are Christ's at His coming. Well Christ has not come back, so we are not those who are Christ's at His coming, we are more closer to Christ the firstfruits. When we die today, we are gaining the glorified body, but those who are left alive till Christ's coming, they receive the glorified body at His returning. See each one in his own order.

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

 

[sdowney717]

Another supporting scripture would be 2 thess 2, where Paul tells the believers God chose them for salvation from the beginning, which points to the beginning of creation, the foundation of the earth, salvation for those God has loved and given the eternal consolation as taught in v16.

Contrasting those who follow Satan, the beast, the false prophet with those who follow after the Trinity, Christ, God, Holy Spirit

v11 Beast worshippers

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

v13 Christ worshippers

Stand Fast
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Those who were chosen "from the beginning" were not chosen before the foundation of the world. John told believers to let that abide in them which they had heard "from the beginning." The expression "from the beginning" cannot have reference to the foundation of the world. They did not hear the gospel from the foundation of the world. It refers to the the beginning of the gospel.

Paul told the Thessalonians that they were chosen from the beginning of gospel preaching.

 

[bling]

Very interesting Boxer.

 

[sdowney717]

Those who were chosen "from the beginning" were not chosen before the foundation of the world. John told believers to let that abide in them which they had heard "from the beginning." The expression "from the beginning" cannot have reference to the foundation of the world. They did not hear the gospel from the foundation of the world. It refers to the the beginning of the gospel.

Paul told the Thessalonians that they were chosen from the beginning of gospel preaching.

Except your ignoring the context of Rev 17.
All the beast worshippers, are of those whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life from when does it say?
'The foundation of the world'.

And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[sdowney717]

Another verse to ponder over.
Jesus says, the kingdom was prepared for YOU, from the foundation of the world.
Just another way for saying from the beginning of time, God elected certain ones to be a part of the kingdom.
God foreknew His own special people from the foundation of the earth.

Matthew 25:34
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[sdowney717]

Here is an interesting thought. v3, even though Israel rebelled in the wilderness, in the timeline, it says God's works were finished from the foundation of the world. Meaning Christ's destiny was foreordained before the world was, before anyone was even born and that by His own self.
And so then was Israel's rebellion a part of the plan of God from before time began. God does not react to the creature. All things are for, of, to, and through God, for His own glory. And this beyond the comprehension of the many, yet some will understand.

That Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, points to the truth of foreordained, and also predestination of the elect who will inherit salvation because they believe in Christ, God says they enter into His rest, that work God did in Christ for His elect, whom He foreknew, God's work that He does, Jesus's own words, is that 'YOU BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT.'

AND THAT GOD'S WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. If you can comprehend this, you have been given divine revelation from God.

This was no mere afterthought, God saying well Christ, now you got to go and die for human beings to save them after Satan deceived people and they fell. All of it was the premeditated plan of the Father before He created the earth.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[com7fy8]

First, Boxer, Paul does not say what you are saying, in plain words. But what you are saying does show how certain wording can be taken in very different ways by different people. And God's word discerns our thoughts and intentions. How we understand the Bible's wording can be connected with our own ways of seeing things, and our motives.

What I see and offer is, that the overall context of the message is saying how the apostles are equal with the Ephesians, as we can see by how Paul says "we all" "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others", in Ephesians 2:3. And, with this, I am clear he also is saying we all are equal with the apostles, by being blessed with all the spiritual blessings of the heavenly places. He does not say "we apostles", but "we all".

There are people who try to make it look as though the apostles are somehow superior to us and distant from us, as though they are unreachable heroes and we could never be blessed like they have been. And ones can want to have hierarchy with out-of-reach and superior leaders; so this can feed into them wanting to think that the apostles were meant by our Father to be higher but also out of reach and too blessed and holy for us to become like them. But the Bible is very clear, I find, how Jesus wants unity in equality of blessedness > in His love >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

We are family, in Jesus; we may have difference in position, but equality in blessedness of being "as He is" "in this world."

Plus, our Apostle Peter does say,

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

An example is a sample of all that God has for all of us. Our apostles are sample examples > 1 Corinthians 11:1.

And about if we all are predestined or not > we have Romans 8:29 >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, we all are foreknown, all predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus. And Paul makes it very clear, how >

"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord." (2 Corinthians 3:18)

So, it is clear how the apostles are not trying to put differences between us and them. But the focus of predestination is how we will all be conformed to the image of Jesus. So, this is where our attention belongs . . . including to how we are becoming, and need to seek our Father for how He corrects us to this > Hebrews 12:4-11.

 

[Look Up]

Let me say right off the bat that I am still a Calvinist. But I no longer believe that Ephesians 1:4 supports the teaching that believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It has become clear to me now that Paul was speaking only about the apostolic company. He says that "WE" (the apostles) were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that "YOU" (the Ephesians) were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, and were marked in him when "YOU" believed.

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Verses 1-12 are about the apostles. They were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and were endowed with all spiritual blessings in Christ and were adopted as sons. We know that Paul was speaking about the apostles because he said that God had made known to them the mystery of his will that they might put into effect God's will. Believers did not put God's will into effect. The apostles put God's will into effect. We know too by the phrase "we who FIRST trusted in Christ." It is the apostles who FIRST trusted in Christ.


Verse 13 is about the Ephesians. They were not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world as were the apostles. They were included in Christ "when they heard the message of truth." They were marked in Christ when they believed.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

In Eph. 1:15-18, Paul uses "you" (Ephesian Christians) and then "us" in v. 19, but to exclude the Ephesian saints from the "us" in v. 19 would be to exclude the church at Ephesus from belief and resurrection power, in part in contradiction to v. 13 and elsewhere in the epistle. And do you think the inheritance noted in v. 14 is excluded from the Ephesian Christians because Paul uses the possessive pronoun "our" of such inheritance exclusive of the Ephesian Christians? In other words, were the Ephesian Christians sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, but not destined for the inheritance of which the Holy Spirit is the guarantee (1:13-14, cf. v. 11)?

In ch. 2 and 4 Paul argues for the unity of the church--Jew and Gentile (and Paul was a Jew)--in salvation blessings. Eph. 1:13 begins "in him you also," using shorthand to suggest the Ephesian Christians enter into every spiritual blessing (v. 3) enumerated in the following vss. Granted there is a chronological difference in coming to Christ (the apostle, then the church at Ephesus), but all are in Christ once they have believed and all have the one salvation. The idea of a two-tiered sense of election to holiness, forgiveness, redemption, predestination to adoption, inheritance (again vv. 11 and 14), promise and so on is inimical to Paul's argument in context even if, technically, Paul switches from "we" to "you" language in ch. 1.

Once the Ephesian elect, former sons of disobedience when separated from Christ, heard the gospel and believed, they demonstrated God had loved them in Christ "before the foundation of the world" too, were predestined to adoption too, had redemption through His blood (cf. 2:13) too "because of the great love with which He loved us [all, not just the apostles]" (2:4). Or when did God plan to unite all things (1:10) in Him (including the Ephesian Christians) if not before the foundation of the world (though not revealed until the apostolic era)? The apostles and prophets are the foundation of the one church (2:20), but "in [Christ], you [Ephesian Christians] also are being built together in a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (2:22), for there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all" (4:6). Those who were first to hope in Christ did so "to the praise of His glory" (1:12), and the Ephesian Christians who received the promised Holy Spirit will receive their inheritance "to the praise of His glory" (1:14) also.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Except your ignoring the context of Rev 17.
All the beast worshippers, are of those whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life from when does it say?
'The foundation of the world'.

And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Another verse to ponder over.
Jesus says, the kingdom was prepared for YOU, from the foundation of the world.
Just another way for saying from the beginning of time, God elected certain ones to be a part of the kingdom.
God foreknew His own special people from the foundation of the earth.

Matthew 25:34
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Paul told the Ephesians that THEY were "included in Christ" when they heard the word of truth, and that they were "marked for salvation" when they believed. Ephesians 1:13 NIV

But the apostles were "chosen in Christ" before the foundation of the world. I have learned a piece of pertinent information about the word "foundation" which I will post after I have investigated it further.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Paul told the Ephesians that THEY were "included in Christ" when they heard the word of truth, and that they were "marked for salvation" when they believed. Ephesians 1:13 NIV

There is a difference between the declaration and determination of God to the fulfillment of it. We were, in a very real sense, chosen before the foundations of the world, yet the realization happened in time and space during our lifetimes.

 

[sdowney717]

There is a difference between the declaration and determination of God to the fulfillment of it. We were, in a very real sense, chosen before the foundations of the world, yet the realization happened in time and space during our lifetimes.

Examine what Paul himself said about his own conversion experience, at one time Paul was a hell bound sinner, but God had mercy on Him and forgave Paul since he had acted ignorantly. It seems that after having known the truth, all the various apostle's doctrine is very strict about a future judgement on persons who reject the Truth in apostasy, calling them antichrists.

Glory to God for His Grace
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Even though Paul says God set him apart from his mother's womb, Paul still needed mercy from God to be of the saved.

Galatians 1
Call to Apostleship
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

So we read the SON was not revealed in Paul until God was pleased to reveal Him. Paul was not born saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. Of himself, Paul writes God separated him from his mother's womb, so it is of all those who God calls by His favoring grace to be ministers and saints.
Separated here is the concept of belonging to God and Christ and not to be 'of the world'

 

[sdowney717]

In Galatians 2, Paul talks of these other apostles in no special reverential light, who 'seemed to be pillars'.

Paul tells us God shows no personal favoritism but acts according to His will for His own purposes and Paul says these other apostles added nothing to him. So we are not to view as spiritual giants any man, but only recognize their calling of God by His grace to impart His truth in their doctrine, not to regard with undeserved adulation any man, but recognize Christ in them who works in us all according to His mercy and grace, according to His own special purposes and will that which He wishes for all the saints. They are all built up into the body of Christ, each part having its own function to the benefit of the entire body of christ, and not just one part to be revered one over another, NOR are we to compare ourselves one with another, for we are all baptized into Christ, Him being the head of the entire body. Of what good functionality is the body without feet, or having no hands, or ears or eyes.

6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.
7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.

 

[Job8]

Let me say right off the bat that I am still a Calvinist. But I no longer believe that Ephesians 1:4 supports the teaching that believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph 1:4,5 KJB).

There is no good reason to separate verse 4 from verse 5 and then reinterpret it. Both of them apply to all Christians, although all Christians do not interpret predestination in the same way. One cannot reasonably conclude that only the apostles were to be holy and blameless either. That would be absurd.

 

[Look Up]

... I no longer believe that Ephesians 1:4 supports the teaching that believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It has become clear to me now that Paul was speaking only about the apostolic company. He says that "WE" (the apostles) were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that "YOU" (the Ephesians) were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, and were marked in him when "YOU" believed.

It occurred to me--sigh--after writing my above post on this thread to question why you believe the "we/us" first person plural language of Eph. 1:3-12 refers solely to the apostles (plural). Paul claims sole authorship in 1:1 (there are no apostles-plural representing the epistle) and apostles-plural are not mentioned until 2:20, and that only in passing in connection with the unity of the church, after which he refers again solely to himself (3:1). Eph. 4:11 also refers to apostles in the plural in the same unity connection, but never in the epistle are does Paul view himself as with the apostles for the purpose of writing the epistle (cf. "I" in 1:15, 3:1 [as above], 2 [me], 3, 7, 8, 13, 14, 4:1, 17, 5:32, 6:20, 21, 22). Is there other contextual evidence to suggest the "we/us" of 1:3-12 refers solely to the apostles? I see none. No doubt the apostles (plural) were among the "we" who were "the first to hope in Christ" (1:15), but can one not reasonably infer others among such first-to-hope "we" aside from the apostles?

Surely Jewish Christians such as those converted at Pentecost or before or fairly soon after (Paul himself being a late-comer to the "first-to-hope") would be incorporated among such "first-to-hope, we" persons, hence Paul's subsequent extended argument concerning the unity of the church in Jew-Gentile terms.

Further, is it to the apostles only that God has made known to "us" the mystery of His will (1:9) in the then-present fullness of time, and not to Jewish Christians also? Granted the "mystery of Christ" was "revealed to [God's] holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (3:5), but Paul in turn reveals to the Ephesians, for example, that "this mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, ... etc. ... through the gospel" (3:6). As I previously noted, the mystery is "as a plan ... to unite all things in Him" (1:10).

 

[sdowney717]

It occurred to me--sigh--after writing my above post on this thread to question why you believe the "we/us" first person plural language of Eph. 1:3-12 refers solely to the apostles (plural). Paul claims sole authorship in 1:1 (there are no apostles-plural representing the epistle) and apostles-plural are not mentioned until 2:20, and that only in passing in connection with the unity of the church, after which he refers again solely to himself (3:1). Eph. 4:11 also refers to apostles in the plural in the same unity connection, but never in the epistle are does Paul view himself as with the apostles for the purpose of writing the epistle (cf. "I" in 1:15, 3:1 [as above], 2 [me], 3, 7, 8, 13, 14, 4:1, 17, 5:32, 6:20, 21, 22). Is there other contextual evidence to suggest the "we/us" of 1:3-12 refers solely to the apostles? I see none. No doubt the apostles (plural) were among the "we" who were "the first to hope in Christ" (1:15), but can one not reasonably infer others among such first-to-hope "we" aside from the apostles?

Surely Jewish Christians such as those converted at Pentecost or before or fairly soon after (Paul himself being a late-comer to the "first-to-hope") would be incorporated among such "first-to-hope, we" persons, hence Paul's subsequent extended argument concerning the unity of the church in Jew-Gentile terms.

Further, is it to the apostles only that God has made known to "us" the mystery of His will (1:9) in the then-present fullness of time, and not to Jewish Christians also? Granted the "mystery of Christ" was "revealed to [God's] holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (3:5), but Paul in turn reveals to the Ephesians, for example, that "this mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, ... etc. ... through the gospel" (3:6). As I previously noted, the mystery is "as a plan ... to unite all things in Him" (1:10).

Good points on the unity of the body of Christ incorporating the jews and also the gentile believers.
the first to hope in Christ were of course some few Jews and now also some few Gentiles.
Paul is just telling gentiles they are now also included when they believe, Christ saves both jew and gentile believers, breaking down the wall of hostility and making one new man from the two.

Ephesians 2 goes into this in depth and is just furthering of the theme from Ephesians 1 of the gentiles being included.
"14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one " that is the jew and the gentile are now one new man.

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

So we see the body of Christ has the select jew and select gentiles being built together into God's temple where God lives. The whole theme is one of unity in the Spirit of called jews and called gentiles.

 

[ZacharyB]

Boxer,

I'd like to remind you that I'm hung up on the factoid(?) that
Paul was writing ONLY to the "faithful" (1:1) saints in Ephesus,
which does NOT include the unfaithful ones!
(Jesus says there are "tares" in the kingdom of God/heaven,
who will be weeded out later, thrown into the fire, and burned.)

Paul also says MANY who are walking "the Christian walk"
are actually enemies of Christ, living for the world, etc.
and are therefore lost (see TLB, Gal or Eph).

So, these faithful ones, IF they remain faithful
(by actually heeding all of the many dire warnings in the NT)
will continue to be members of God's elect unto eternal life.

I've been reading The Living Bible lately ...
The LB carries on and on about believers being gloriously saved,
but slips in the odd verse here and there about ...
believers will actually be saved IF they continue being faithful,
clean up their acts, are obedient, and etc.
As per usual, rather quite well hidden amongst all of the good stuff.

 

[Butch5]

Let me say right off the bat that I am still a Calvinist. But I no longer believe that Ephesians 1:4 supports the teaching that believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It has become clear to me now that Paul was speaking only about the apostolic company. He says that "WE" (the apostles) were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that "YOU" (the Ephesians) were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, and were marked in him when "YOU" believed.

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Verses 1-12 are about the apostles. They were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and were endowed with all spiritual blessings in Christ and were adopted as sons. We know that Paul was speaking about the apostles because he said that God had made known to them the mystery of his will that they might put into effect God's will. Believers did not put God's will into effect. The apostles put God's will into effect. We know too by the phrase "we who FIRST trusted in Christ." It is the apostles who FIRST trusted in Christ.


Verse 13 is about the Ephesians. They were not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world as were the apostles. They were included in Christ "when they heard the message of truth." They were marked in Christ when they believed.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Congratulations on picking up on Paul's switch in personal pronouns. Many people miss this. I would submit though that the "WE" is not just the apostles, but rather is a reference to the Jews. Here is a verse by verse breakdown of Ephesians 1:3-14

http://pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf