I have a question about cultural appropriation.

[Albion]

With the shamans issue, you are not dependent upon any theory of cultural appropriation in order to be alarmed and to call it wrong, impermissible, etc. With that case, you are concerned with people falsely claiming to have a certain kind of power or authorization which they, in fact, do not possess. This is operating under false pretenses and is little different from snake oil salesmen or people practicing medicine without a license.

 

[durangodawood]

With the shamans issue, you are not dependent upon any theory of cultural appropriation in order to be alarmed and to call it wrong, impermissible, etc. With that case, you are concerned with people falsely claiming to have a certain kind of power or authorization which they, in fact, do not possess. This is operating under false pretenses and is little different from snake oil salesmen or people practicing medicine without a license.

Says who? The shaman licensing board?

Still waiting for your standard of cultural appropriation you used to judge my example as incorrect.

 

[Hank77]

But this is something that can be done by a minority as well; do you agree?

I don't think so in the case of Cultural appropriation. By definition it is a majority appropriating from a minority. A minority would be assimilating into a prodominate culture.
Two of the things that were forced on the Native Americans in an attempt to assimilate them was Christianity and the English language.

 

[Hank77]

With the shamans issue, you are not dependent upon any theory of cultural appropriation in order to be alarmed and to call it wrong, impermissible, etc. With that case, you are concerned with people falsely claiming to have a certain kind of power or authorization which they, in fact, do not possess. This is operating under false pretenses and is little different from snake oil salesmen or people practicing medicine without a license.

I can say that at least more than a few Native Americans do see it as Cultural appropriation. Whether it is a correct view or not can be debated but without their input it isn't really worthwhile.

 

[Ken-1122]

I don't think so in the case of Cultural appropriation. By definition it is a majority appropriating from a minority.

Why can’t a minority appropriate from another minority? Using the example you provided before, if a black man used Native American religious ceremonial rites it would be just as offensive as if a white man did it; do you agree?

A minority would be assimilating into a prodominate culture.

No; minority cultures are a part of American culture. It’s not like US culture is British culture, and all the other cultures are somehow on the outside trying to assimilate! Even though those who started this country were British, today US culture is far different than British due to the influx of other cultures that has shaped this country into what it is today.

Two of the things that were forced on the Native Americans in an attempt to assimilate them was Christianity and the English language.

That was a long time ago; we’re talking about today.

 

[Albion]

I can say that at least more than a few Native Americans do see it as Cultural appropriation. Whether it is a correct view or not can be debated but without their input it isn't really worthwhile.

So is CA, properly speaking, something that 1) applies to Native Americans only and them 2) having been made to ADOPT the white mans ways, language, etc. as opposed to the latter situation, taking something FROM the Native Americans?

In post 123 you appeared to call it CA in both cases--them being forced to assimilate and them having something appropriated by the majority.

 

[Hank77]

Why can’t a minority appropriate from another minority? Using the example you provided before, if a black man used Native American religious ceremonial rites it would be just as offensive as if a white man did it; do you agree?

I would assume so.

No; minority cultures are a part of American culture. It’s not like US culture is British culture, and all the other cultures are somehow on the outside trying to assimilate! Even though those who started this country were British, today US culture is far different than British due to the influx of other cultures that has shaped this country into what it is today.

When people come here, to a predominantly English speaking country, and they learn to speak English is that not assimilating to our culture?

That was a long time ago; we’re talking about today.

True, but I think that was a clear example of what assimilation looks like, even though it was forced on them.

 

[Ken-1122]

I would assume so.

So it has nothing to do with minority vs majority cultures.

When people come here, to a predominantly English speaking country, and they learn to speak English is that not assimilating to our culture?

No! English is a language; not a culture.

True, but I think that was a clear example of what assimilation looks like, even though it was forced on them.

Yeah but that stuff doesn't happen anymore.

 

[Hank77]

So is CA, properly speaking, something that 1) applies to Native Americans only and them 2) having been made to ADOPT the white mans ways, language, etc. as opposed to the latter situation, taking something FROM the Native Americans?

In post 123 you appeared to call it CA in both cases--them being forced to assimilate and them having something appropriated by the majority.

Post 123 in response to

Right from the dictionary.
the action of taking something for one's own use, typically without the owner's permission

But this is something that can be done by a minority as well; do you agree?

I don't think so in the case of Cultural appropriation. By definition it is a majority appropriating from a minority. A minority would be assimilating into a prodominate culture.
Two of the things that were forced on the Native Americans in an attempt to assimilate them was Christianity and the English language.

I think I miss understood Ken's question. He was asking if a minority could appropriate another minorities culture. I took it as him asking if a minority could appropriate from a majority.

 

[Hank77]

No! English is a language; not a culture.

I really disagree, language is very much a part of a culture. It's even part of the subcultures within the US.

 

[Albion]

It looked to me like he was asking if a minority could appropriate (CA) from a majority group. The term itself, just as it stands, would suggest that the answer is yes.

 

[Hank77]

So it has nothing to do with minority vs majority cultures.

I can only give you the accepted definition. I suppose if we use a broad brush then it could be minority to minority. But that doesn't seem to be the norm.

 

[Hank77]

It looked to me like he was asking if a minority could appropriate (CA) from a majority group. The term itself, just as it stands, would suggest that the answer is yes.

That is what I thought too. But my answer to that would be no, I think that is assimilation, not appropriation. But that's just my take on it by what I have read.

 

[Albion]

I can only give you the accepted definition. I suppose if we use a broad brush then it could be minority to minority. But that doesn't seem to be the norm.

For the record, what IS the accepted definition and who determined it? The definition certainly is not simply cultural plus appropriation, and if it were, then the questions about minorities and majorities appropriating from each other would be answered yes in all cases.

 

[Albion]

That is what I thought too. But my answer to that would be no, I think that is assimilation, not appropriation. But that's just my take on it by what I have read.

Well, I would say that assimilation refers to a much broader "fitting in." Cultural appropriation appears to be different from that in several ways.

For one, it could be only one item. That would not in itself amount to anything close to what we mean by assimilation.

Second, the word appropriation means a taking of something without permission. When the Native Americans learned English, wore European-type clothing, became Christians, and so on, the majority was having its way! That is what it wanted to have happen. There was no theft involved, no taking without permission.

 

[Hank77]

For the record, what IS the accepted definition and who determined it? The definition certainly is not simply cultural plus appropriation, and if it were, then the questions about minorities and majorities appropriating from each other would be answered yes in all cases.

Yes, I agree with that simple dictionary definition. I thought I had made it clear that it is more commonly used for a majority appropriating from a minority.
I just googled what wiki had to say about it. I pretty much understood the same usage. We have a CF member who has posted the Native American view on this several times. It would be good if she was a part of this discussion.

 

[Hank77]

Second, the word appropriation means a taking of something without permission. When the Native Americans learned English, wore European-type clothing, became Christians, and so on, the majority was having its way! That is what it wanted to have happen. There was no theft involved, no taking without permission.

Yes, and I said that was a forced assimilation.

 

[Dave-W]

So if a black man from USA wears dreadlocks, is that cultural appropriation? If so how is his decision to wear that hair style stealing?

Not at all, especially if he is Rastafarian.

But a white guy ....

 

[Albion]

Yes, I agree with that simple dictionary definition. I thought I had made it clear that it is more commonly used for a majority appropriating from a minority.

Well, that probably is the way it is most often used, but I was wondering what the actual definition is supposed to be (or if there is none, as I expect is the case).

 

[Albion]

Yes, and I said that was a forced assimilation.

So it would definitely not be a case of Cultural Appropriation.