I have a question about cultural appropriation.

[Ken-1122]

When white guys with no real native background come to Sedona and try to sell Native American spiritual retreats. I'd say that's a good example.

Do the Native Americans have a problem with this?

 

[durangodawood]

Do the Native Americans have a problem with this?

From what Ive read.... generally, yes.

 

[Ken-1122]

From what Ive read.... generally, yes.

Is it because they find it insulting?

 

[durangodawood]

Is it because they find it insulting?

Not exactly sure. Not native, myself.

You seem interested enough in this topic that youd profit from a deeper examination of this topic than you can get from us armchair sociologists.

 

[Hank77]

How are you defining appropriate?

Right from the dictionary.
the action of taking something for one's own use, typically without the owner's permission

I don’t know what a shaman is, but why is this bad? I went on a Caribbean Cruise and at each Island there were plenty of merchants willing to sell cultural Jewelry, clothing, and even braid the hair of White women from the ships in accordance to their tradition. Does this mean it is okay to wear their clothing, Jewelry, and hair styles since there are people in that culture willing to sell those things for a profit?

Using Native American religious ceremonial rites when one is not really a Native American shaman would be like me claiming to be a Catholic priest and administering the Eucharist. I'm pretty sure Catholics would find that very offensive.

Buying and using what is willingly sold and using it as intended isn't the same thing. I have a Navajo rug in my home which was bought from a Navajo some 60-70 yrs ago. They sold it with the intent that it would be used in my in-laws home.

 

[Ken-1122]

Right from the dictionary.
the action of taking something for one's own use, typically without the owner's permission

But this is something that can be done by a minority as well; do you agree?

Using Native American religious ceremonial rites when one is not really a Native American shaman would be like me claiming to be a Catholic priest and administering the Eucharist. I'm pretty sure Catholics would find that very offensive.

I agree! Which is consistent with the definition I provided earlier. Unfortunately usually when I see the term used, the complaint is often made by those who aren’t even a part of the culture

 

[Ken-1122]

Not exactly sure. Not native, myself.

You seem interested enough in this topic that youd profit from a deeper examination of this topic than you can get from us armchair sociologists.

I've already got my opinion on the issue, I was just interested in the opinions of others.

 

[durangodawood]

I've already got my opinion on the issue, I was just interested in the opinions of others.

So youre acting like you lack the information to form a proper opinion?

 

[Albion]

Right from the dictionary.
the action of taking something for one's own use, typically without the owner's permission

The key to the phoniness of the "cultural appropriation" gimmick is in realizing that there is no owner.

If some tribesmen wore rings in their ears, and you find that idea to be attractive, you are not taking anything from any owner when you start wearing rings yourself. In fact, the issue is not even that clear-cut since it would be necessary, first, to know if the tribesmen were the first people to wear them--which of course is near to impossible.

 

[durangodawood]

The key to the phoniness of the "cultural appropriation" gimmick is in realizing that there is no owner.

If some tribesmen wore rings in their ears, and you find that idea to be attractive, you are not taking anything from any owner when you start wearing rings yourself. In fact, the issue is not even that clear-cut since it would be necessary, first, to know if the tribesmen were the first people to wear them--which of course is near to impossible.

The proper way to critique 'cultural appropriation' is to use a classic example, not some made up thing that no one but you considers 'cultural appropriation'.

 

[Albion]

The proper way to critique 'cultural appropriation' is to use a classic example, not some made up thing that no one but you considers 'cultural appropriation'.

Says whom? From all that I have heard from the people who dreamed up this concept, that distinction is never made. Perhaps that is partly because there is no standard by which to define "classic example", just as there is no longer any standard by which to judge something to be racist, meaning that anything and everything is fair game for making an accusation.

And by the way, the example I used (and which you dismissed as not a classic example) wasn't entirely hypothetical, since one of the best publicized complaints made about a supposed cultural appropriation has been the wearing, by non-Hispanic people, of hoop earrings.

 

[durangodawood]

Says whom? From all that I have heard from the people who dreamed up this concept, that distinction is never made. Perhaps that is partly because there is no standard by which to define "classic example", just as there is no longer any standard by which to judge something to be racist, meaning that anything and everything is fair game for making an accusation.

An by the way, the example I use an which you dismissed as not a classic example wasnt entirely hypothetical since one of the best publicized complaints made about a supposed cultural appropriation has been the wearing, by non-Hispanic people, of hoop earrings.

To really test the concept you need to skip the absurd and dismissable examples.... and go right for the ones that most challenge your current opinion.

For me, thats guys with no native background offering native american spiritual ceremonies for a fee.

 

[Albion]

To really test the concept you need to skip the absurd and dismissable examples.... and go right for the ones that most challenge your current opinion.

For me, thats guys with no native background offering native american spiritual ceremonies for a fee.

Oh, so its a purely Native American spiritual issue. OK. And you are not persuaded that all the other complaints about cultural appropriation going on are valid.

But if so, the definition has to be a heck of a lot more specific than it is so that it does not become just another excuse for targeting someone.

In fact, it is too late for that. Cultural appropriation as a political insult has already passed into being anything and everything to whoever is making the charge.

 

[durangodawood]

Oh, so its a purely Native American spiritual issue....

How did you ever get that?

I said its the example I use, because its clear cut. I didnt say its THE entire definition or even the only valid example.

 

[Albion]

How did you ever get that?

I quoted you in the previous post.

I said its the example I use, because its clear cut. I didnt say its THE entire definition or even the only valid example.

It appeared that you were saying that, for yourself, that was the issue, not merely one example. But all right then, given your reply, my previous comments about the phoniness and unworkability of the whole cultural appropriation thing still stand.

 

[durangodawood]

I quoted you in the previous post.


It appeared that you were saying that, for yourself, that was the issue, not merely one example. But all right then, given your reply, my previous comments about the phoniness and unworkability of the whole cultural appropriation thing still stand.

I said I "go right for the (examples) that most challenge your current opinion". Then I gave you the best one for me. In no way does that mean its the definition or the only example.

You dont think you can find a genuine notion of cultural appropriation in the native ceremony example I provided?

 

[Albion]

You dont think you can find a genuine notion of cultural appropriation in the native ceremony example I provided?

We would first have to decide if cultural appropriation is meaningful as a concept. For example, I do not think that the particular example you used was an example of cultural appropriation at all, so you can perhaps see why I see the whole thing as being just a catch-all term that sounds intellectual but means whatever the accuser wants it to mean.

 

[durangodawood]

We would first have to decide if cultural appropriation is meaningful as a concept. For example, I do not think that the particular example you used was an example of cultural appropriation at all, so you can perhaps see why I see the whole thing as being just a catch-all term that sounds intellectual but means whatever the accuser wants it to mean.

So, clearly you have a definition in mind. What is it?

 

[Albion]

So, clearly you have a definition in mind. What is it?

No, I have a problem with the fact that there appears to be no firm definition. I have said that before.

This doesn't mean that your issue with the Native American shamans isn't valid, but that it rests upon another basis altogether and shouldn't be mixed in with the cultural appropriation nonsense.

 

[durangodawood]

No, I have a problem with the fact that there appears to be no firm definition. I have said that before.

This doesn't mean that your issue with the Native American shamans isn't valid, but that it rests upon another basis altogether and shouldn't be mixed in with the cultural appropriation nonsense.

If you know my example isnt a real example of "cultural appropriation", then you must have some standard against which youre measuring it. What is that standard?