I Hate Caitlyn Jenner: Liberals turn on Jenner after she criticizes Clinton and defends Trump.

MoonlessNight

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Ok, I feel like you are trolling me here.

Certainly I am speaking facetiously. It is a common rhetorical device, and what's more it's far from the first time that I have used it on this site.

But I am not "trolling," I am trying to demonstrate that your positions are ill thought out.

Unless you suspect that I am "trolling" because I honestly do not see anything bad about the word "extremist" or good about the word "moderate" absent a context to make sense of what positions they actually correspond to.
 
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LoAmmi

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Certainly I am speaking facetiously. It is a common rhetorical device, and what's more it's far from the first time that I have used it on this site.

But I am not "trolling," I am trying to demonstrate that your positions are ill thought out.

Unless you suspect that I am "trolling" because I honestly do not see anything bad about the word "extremist" or good about the word "moderate" absent a context to make sense of what positions they actually correspond to.

No, trolling because you're taking what I said to a place where you know I'm not using it. And yeah, I know it's not the first time you use it because you always use it. It's kind of tiring and unproductive.
 
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MoonlessNight

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No, trolling because you're taking what I said to a place where you know I'm not using it. And yeah, I know it's not the first time you use it because you always use it. It's kind of tiring and unproductive.

You seem to define "where I'm using it" to mean "anywhere my statements don't make me look foolish." So far your statements have all been about "extremism" or "moderation", without context, or alternatively and more recently about "absolute belief." This would seem to mean that you are objecting to a belief in absolute truth, or at least about being sure about any given truth. But that way leads to relativism and from there nihilism, with truth itself as the enemy. This can be most clearly seen by examining mathematics, which nearly everyone agrees to be objective and absolute, which is why I brought the topic up.

I address you using rhetorical devices because you are vague and it is often unclear whether you have a firm knowledge of your own principles and definitions. If you stated all of those things clearly, then we could address each other in a manner closer to the rigid and precise methods of scholasticism. But as it is there would be no profit to either of us if I addressed the conversation in that way.

Of course, I could be mistaken about your views. The purposes of showing the absurd consequences of what beliefs would seem to entail is to force the other person to clarify how their beliefs do not lead to that conclusion, or to admit that their beliefs lead to absurd conclusions. That is to say, I'm willing and in fact eager to see whether my characterization of your position is mistaken.

There was a time when I put something like "of course, I might be wrong" in nearly everyone of my posts that addressed what someone else believed. But I haven't seen a significant change in how people respond to me based on whether I included such a caveat or not, so now I drop it most of the time. But if you want you can imagine that it is implicitly there. I still am willing to admit my mistakes, particularly about in guessing what other people think since I can never have direct access to the thoughts of any other person.
 
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LoAmmi

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You seem to define "where I'm using it" to mean "anywhere my statements don't make me look foolish." So far your statements have all been about "extremism" or "moderation", without context, or alternatively and more recently about "absolute belief." This would seem to mean that you are objecting to a belief in absolute truth, or at least about being sure about any given truth. But that way leads to relativism and from there nihilism, with truth itself as the enemy. This can be most clearly seen by examining mathematics, which nearly everyone agrees to be objective and absolute, which is why I brought the topic up.

I address you using rhetorical devices because you are vague and it is often unclear whether you have a firm knowledge of your own principles and definitions. If you stated l of those things clearly, then we could address each other in a manner closer to the rigid and precise methods of scholasticism. But as it is there would be no profit to either of us if I addressed the conversation in that way.

Of course, I could be mistaken about your views. The purposes of showing the absurd consequences of what beliefs would seem to entail is to force the other person to clarify how their beliefs do not lead to that conclusion, or to admit that their beliefs lead to absurd conclusions. That is to say, I'm willing and in fact eager to see whether my characterization of your position is mistaken.

There was a time when I put something like "of course, I might be wrong" in nearly everyone of my posts that addressed what someone else believed. But I haven't seen a significant change in how people respond to me based on whether I included such a caveat or not, so now I drop it most of the time. But if you want you can imagine that it is implicitly there. I still am willing to admit my mistakes, particularly about in guessing what other people think since I can never have direct access to the thoughts of any other person.

I'm not writing a scholarly work on all of this. I'm not willing to be held to that standard on a message board I visit with the only purpose being to pass time. I won't put that effort into it.
 
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MoonlessNight

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I'm not writing a scholarly work on all of this. I'm not willing to be held to that standard on a message board I visit with the only purpose being to pass time. I won't put that effort into it.

Nor do I expect you to, as I explicitly stated.

However, if you aren't going to put in the minimal effort to clarify your positions when people misunderstand them, you will have to content yourself with being misunderstood.
 
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LoAmmi

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Nor do I expect you to, as I explicitly stated.

However, if you aren't going to put in the minimal effort to clarify your positions when people misunderstand them, you will have to content yourself with being misunderstood.

Well, it seems like only you that goes into this stuff so I believe I am understood just fine.
 
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MikeK

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Well, it seems like only you that goes into this stuff so I believe I am understood just fine.

I don't ever recall having any difficulty understanding you and have always found you to be both clear and respectful. I can't say that about everyone in this discussion.
 
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MoonlessNight

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I really suspect that nine times out of ten difficulties in communication on these forums stems from a lack of common notions. Each person usually makes certain foundational assumptions and assumes that everyone else shares the same foundational assumptions. When someone does not share these assumptions misinterpretations will arise. And I am beginning to think that there is no way around such miscommunications, since attempts to clarify the issue will generally be met with disbelief that anyone could disagree with something so basic, followed by suspicions that the person who has misunderstood things must be doing so deliberately, because the assumption is thought be shared by everyone.
 
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benedictaoo

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And the far, far right does the same thing. Extremists are scary no matter the group.
Right, but this thread is about how scary that group is. We can talk about other scary groups like BLM in a minute, no deflection necessary. But this thread is how fickle and hate filed liberals are if you are a conservative.
 
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benedictaoo

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It was said that the trans community turned on Caitlin, so I doubt Caitlin is the spokesperson. If people are going to speak of diverse communities as if they only have one veiw, one voice, then they must assume a spokesperson who represents that veiw.
Which is political?? So you are saying a transgender can't be a political conservative and represent? Okay, well, okay. Learn something new everyday. All this time I thought the liberals were the tolerant ones?? #confused? I thought they love you no matter what, for WHO you are, not your skin, not who you love, not what sex you wanna be... you know, being the real you, stuff like that. But if you are a political conservative, all bets are off. Wow mountain chick. Just wow. Thanks for letting us know that's all it was ever about. You see you just proved that liberals USE groups of people like blacks, gays, ect for self interest political gain. WOW, just WOW. That's called exploitation. But seeing how your guy wrote inappropriate content for a living, liberals are no stranger to exploitation. Love the little guy my eye, it's about exploitation.
 
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LoAmmi

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I really suspect that nine times out of ten difficulties in communication on these forums stems from a lack of common notions. Each person usually makes certain foundational assumptions and assumes that everyone else shares the same foundational assumptions. When someone does not share these assumptions misinterpretations will arise. And I am beginning to think that there is no way around such miscommunications, since attempts to clarify the issue will generally be met with disbelief that anyone could disagree with something so basic, followed by suspicions that the person who has misunderstood things must be doing so deliberately, because the assumption is thought be shared by everyone.

Let me help you with something. If you are unclear about what the other person is saying, just ask them. If you repeatedly put the words in contexts they have no business being in, such as transferring a political discussion to a discussion about math, even if you don't intend to do it you look like you are mocking or trolling. You knew that I wasn't saying a thing about teaching math. So instead of me thinking you want clarification, I just think you're trying to get me to waste my time. So, if you are sincere, try just asking.
 
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benedictaoo

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I'd say he dared not to transition political party at the same time he did his wardrobe.

Isn't that something to witness though? We demand tolerance! But we don't tolerate Conservatives.

One man in Jenner's new circle said if Bruce doesn't figure it out, in other words apparently change parties, he's likely to find himself isolated from the trans community. All because of his politically conservative views. Talk about rupture in priorities when claiming tolerance a virtue.
It's sad is what it is because at the end of the day, end of the story, when it's all said and done you can't really be who you are. It's exploitation. Sad as heck.
 
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LoAmmi

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Right, but this thread is about how scary that group is. We can talk about other scary groups like BLM in a minute, no deflection necessary. But this thread is how fickle and hate filed liberals are if you are a conservative.

Ah. A Professional Victims thread. Carry on then.
 
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benedictaoo

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Wow... I might have to watch the show to see how this all will end. They are like badgering and berating him. The hate these people hold for conservatives is really scary but Bruce is right, if the economy tanks it's not going to matter what you are. It's true. #preachCait! lol.
 
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benedictaoo

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Ah. A Professional Victims thread. Carry on then.
More like a professional can't own it thread, a professional deflect it thread. It is what it is, own it. If you are one of them and a conservative, you can't be one of them. I'm waiting for liberals to start making republicans drink from their own water fountains. If you can't see the irony and if you can't see the division liberals create then I'm at a lost for any more words to waste responding to you responding to me.
 
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PsychoeDial

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Wow... I might have to watch the show to see how this all will end. They are like badgering and berating him. The hate these people hold for conservatives is really scary but Bruce is right, if the economy tanks it's not going to matter what you are. It's true. #preachCait! lol.
I would hope that this encounter with Bruce and these other men on the bus help the viewership to realize the tolerance campaign on the Trans part is conditional. That Bruce is a Conservative is unacceptable to these men who are on the bus he chartered.
The idea that one of them says if Bruce doesn't change his point of view as a life long Republican could result in his being isolated and abandoned by this community is telling. They expect to be tolerated as men in dresses, they demand access to women's facilities which if put into law insures any man that same right, and yet they will turn on one of their own for his political views.
That they're Liberal is saying they want more government interference in their life and more government control.
Which is odd I think for men who think they are liberated when they dress as women but don't commit to the surgery that removes any traces of their former manhood.

In any case, I had to search for those show clips to find what's become of Bruce since he's altered his identity. And really, I wonder if all of this will fade away in a year or two and he'll come out with the apology or excuse of his having done this as some sort of social experiment.
The Kardashian clan are addicted to self-exploitation. I think Bruce being the only true celebrity at the time he felt marginalized and overwhelmed by the women in his life. This is his way to get out there and put the spotlight on himself.

Just my thoughts. In any case what a sad transition from the athlete I remember to this travesty in a dress with a very botched bit of plastic surgery to boot. I feel for his children. Especially his sons.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Always Bruce.
Ya just cant change DNA no matter how many parts are taken off. :D

mmqz5i.jpg
 
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LoAmmi

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More like a professional can't own it thread, a professional deflect it thread. It is what it is, own it. If you are one of them and a conservative, you can't be one of them. I'm waiting for liberals to start making republicans drink from their own water fountains. If you can't see the irony and if you can't see the division liberals create then I'm at a lost for any more words to waste responding to you responding to me.

I read the article in the OP and what I saw was someone took a sample of tweets from random Internet ya-hoos and are presenting it was "LIBERALS". Ok, sure, those people don't like Jenner anymore. I'm a liberal, the only thing I ever wanted from Jenner is for Jenner to go away. Along with everybody related and any TV show connected. Plenty of Conservatives came out to attack Jenner when the transition happened and now some of those same people are coming back cheering for the political views. Woo hoo.

But I doubt you care to see the nuance in it. Liberals = BAD Conservatives = GOOD to you, and that's the binary. I'm BAD because I'm a liberal. You're GOOD because you're a conservative. What a world.
 
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PsychoeDial

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It's sad is what it is because at the end of the day, end of the story, when it's all said and done you can't really be who you are. It's exploitation. Sad as heck.
If I may, what I found tragic about this as I looked more into what I'd heard had become of Bruce is this. Mental illness, emotional disorder, maybe even a chemical imbalance , disrupts a man's sense of personal identity. And rather than that being treated because in today's ever devolving PC muzzle of a world treatment for disorder is not allowed to be voiced, but instead exploitation and praise of a disorder is. And it's heralded as liberation and something that is entitled to give the afflicted equal rights with those whom their disorder causes them to emulate. In this case a man who see's himself as a woman. While keeping his genitalia in tact. And in the case of Bruce, when pressed by other men like him actually says he may be open to dating men.

Because in his current state he'd appear as a lesbian being a straight man dating women while dressed as female.
The conundrum in that visual is, if he started dating men he'd be a gay male. His current state of dress however would make that coupling appear as a heterosexual couple were he to date a male who attired himself as such. How's that for living in a reality of Alice's looking glass?
 
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