I found this comment in a post.

[Lulav]

The translators obviously are showing some gross error as they incorrectly put 'new moon' in place of 'new month'. It is important to not mix up 'month' with 'moon' as they are two different words in every language:

Old English
monath 'month'
menon 'moon'

Greek
menas 'month'
fenggari 'moon'

Latin
mensis 'month'
luna 'moon'

Hebrew
CHoDeSH 'month'
YeRaCH 'moon'

We can see from the common Proto-Indo European root me- 'measure'--shared by the English, Greek, and Latin--are rooted in the calendar practices of all three nations in measuring the length of the month by the moon: therefore it is easy for many for many to mix up 'month' with 'moon'. We see in history that the Hebrews adopted a lunar observation after leaving Babylonian captivity not before; and this became ingrained into the modern Hebrew mind after being ruled by Greece and Rome who both had lunar calendars during the reign of Alexander the Great and the time of the Caesar's.

Have you taken into consideration the root word of Chodesh? It is 'cadash' meaning to repair or renew. The month is not renewed, but the moon is. The Sun does not appear that way.

 

[Lulav]

Yes and these and all passages like them would be awesome in establishing a lunar calendar...except when we examine scripture closely and breakdown the math and draw everything out: we find that there is no command from beginning to end of scripture to use the Moon to determine dates from year to year:

=====================
01) Sun 30 Days - Moon 29 Days = 1 Day
02) Sun 30 Days - Moon 30 Days = 0 Days
03) Sun 31 Days - Moon 29 Days = 2 Days
=====================
04) Sun 30 Days - Moon 30 Days = 0 Days
05) Sun 30 Days - Moon 29 Days = 1 Day
06) Sun 31 Days - Moon 30 Days = 1 Day
=====================
07) Sun 30 Days - Moon 29 Days = 1 Day
08) Sun 30 Days - Moon 30 Days = 0 Days
09) Sun 31 Days - Moon 29 Days = 2 Days
=====================
10) Sun 30 Days - Moon 30 Days = 0 Days
11) Sun 30 Days - Moon 29 Days = 1 Day
12) Sun 31 Days - Moon 30 Days = 1 Day
=====================
Subtotal
Sun 374 Days | Moon 354 Days = Moon falls behind the Sun 10 Days

to correct this before moving into the new year we must transfer the surplus days from the Sun to the Moon...

Grand Total
Sun 364 Days | Moon 364 Days

As we can see from the numbers above the Moon is not reliable in keeping the year in harmony. Though it has its uses for a sign through the seasons, days, and years like the Sun and stars: scripture is clear that the Sun leads the Moon and the stars throughout the year.

I've always contemplated that the calendar set forth by G-d is in regard of his appointed times. This covers Seven months. After that it is not of import to keep tract but to watch for the barley when the appointed times start all over. That is because man can make all kinds of calendars, but the L-RD, even though the moon was put in a cycle, he also controls the weather conditions and will determine when the year starts by having the barley in green ear at that time. Since this determines the rest of his appointed times for that year it cannot be manipulated.

הַחֹ֧דֶשׁ הַזֶּ֛ה לָכֶ֖ם רֹ֣אשׁ חֳדָשִׁ֑ים רִאשֹׁ֥ון הוּא֙ לָכֶ֔ם לְחָדְשֵׁ֖י הַשָּׁנָֽה

This month 'chodesh' is to be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

The "first-fruits of the harvest" were offered on the 16th day of Nisan, from that fruit which ripened first in Palestine—barley (but see Men. 84a)—and with considerable ceremony, in order to emphasize dissent from the Sadducean interpretation of the Scripture text, "the morrow after the Sabbath" (Lev. xxiii. 11), which is, according to the Sadducees, always Sunday (Men. 65b).

I will say you are making a gross logical error here sister Lulav. You are saying that because the Sadducees were condemned by Christ that everything they do is therefore wrong...this is a huge error as that means by this logic one error in a man or woman makes everything they did before wrong. That is like me saying that because my parents made one error in raising me that they know nothing about parenthood. And your citation above proves that the Pharisees wished to assert their own authority over that of what is clearly stated in scripture. My argument is not based on the reasoning of the Sadducees: it is based on the reading of what's in the Torah.

And you said above you weren't aware of this, that is the Sadducean dating. They interpreted the instructions as the day after the Sabbath to mean the weekly Sabbath, but the Pharisees did not, they determined it to be speaking of the first day of unleavened bread which is also called a Sabbath.

No, I said that I never heard of anyone claiming that the Sadducees were the ones who proclaimed a 364 Day Solar calendar which you implied. I simply took what is written in the Torah and laid it out thoroughly without any bias or appeal to outside authority. Let's keep in mind that Jesus' main attacks on the Pharisees and the Sadducees was not on the law but, their hypocrisy in regards to the law.

I guess I'm not seeing what you are seeing.

David said unto Jonathan, 'Behold, tomorrow is the new moon

Jonathan said to David, 'Tomorrow is the new moon

David hid himself in the field: and when the new moon was come, the king sat him down to eat meat​

You Said:

We see above that the understanding between David, Jesse, and king Saul was that there was no need to use the Moon to track the beginning of the months or, the days of the year:

However, at this time there doesn't seem to be a organization under Saul, David was the one who set it up, meaning the priests who would site the moon and other things in the temple. I think they could say Tomorrow is the New moon by observing the sky and seeing the moon disappear and then knowing that the next day it would begin to appear, even just a sliver.

I used the passage above to show that new moon is not being used in the way many force the term on the word month. The passage above shows in context that the new moon was not the physical moon but, the beginning of the 1st Day of the Month. This is solidified further on the third day of David's absence when it says that was also the 2nd Day of the Month.

As for the absence of an organization under Saul: let's keep in mind that the priesthood was established with Aaron which at the time of Saul's reign was ~400 Years ago. Why Samuel was brought to the priest was he not? And Eli served as the high priest...so I am not sure where you get the idea that there was no priestly setup. And let's not forget that even before the priesthood that from Moses back to Adam: no one had any problems keeping track of the days of the year. The story of Noah proves that the timeframe which passed during the 1 Year and 10 Days on the Ark could only be accomplished and worked out on a solar calendar, not a lunar calendar.

Have you taken into consideration the root word of Chodesh? It is 'cadash' meaning to repair or renew. The month is not renewed, but the moon is. The Sun does not appear that way.

Yes I have considered this and have no qualms about the translation for the Hebrew word for month. Have you noticed that in nature the Sun's light is renewed each morning and extinguished each evening? Each day is the beginning of a new day in which the light of the Sun is renewed, literally, made new again. Limiting the word CHoDeSH to only the Moon is contrary to what we read in Genesis 1:14-19 where the Sun, Moon and stars are to be for signs, seasons, days, and years; weeks and months are not mentioned because it is understood that they are composed of the total number of days which make up the year. The leader of the day according to God and Moses is the Sun--not the Moon and the stars--as it rules the day and divides it from the night: therefore the Sun is the leader of the months of the year: therefore God's calendar is solar.

I've always contemplated that the calendar set forth by G-d is in regard of his appointed times. This covers Seven months. After that it is not of import to keep tract but to watch for the barley when the appointed times start all over. That is because man can make all kinds of calendars, but the L-RD, even though the moon was put in a cycle, he also controls the weather conditions and will determine when the year starts by having the barley in green ear at that time. Since this determines the rest of his appointed times for that year it cannot be manipulated.

הַחֹ֧דֶשׁ הַזֶּ֛ה לָכֶ֖ם רֹ֣אשׁ חֳדָשִׁ֑ים רִאשֹׁ֥ון הוּא֙ לָכֶ֔ם לְחָדְשֵׁ֖י הַשָּׁנָֽה

This month 'chodesh' is to be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

If there were no need for the other five months then please explain why Moses goes through the effort of mentioning the 10th Month in the story of Noah (Genesis 8:5)? And why do king David and king Solomon bother to setup their officers according to the twelve months of the year (1 Kings 4:7-18, 1 Chronicles 27:1-15)?

The barley is irrelevant because God clearly tells us through Moses that we track time with the luminaries, not produce. While spring is a good indicator for beginning the new year it alone does not tell us precisely when and where we are in the year if we want to keep track of the appointed times: that is why God instituted a solar calendar which we could easily observe and calculate.

Now I kindly provided my proofs and showed how and why they align with scripture. I also kindly and patiently proved how according to scripture in post #53 the Moon is not the leader of the months in any of its phases. If you would be so kind sister Lulav to point out any error in that for me to correct then I will look over your counterpoints and concede and admit my errors. If you cannot find fault with the evidence I have presented then will you please concede instead of holding onto your pride for the sake of saving face?

 

[pinacled]

I will say you are making a gross logical error here sister Lulav. You are saying that because the Sadducees were condemned by Christ that everything they do is therefore wrong...this is a huge error as that means by this logic one error in a man or woman makes everything they did before wrong. That is like me saying that because my parents made one error in raising me that they know nothing about parenthood. And your citation above proves that the Pharisees wished to assert their own authority over that of what is clearly stated in scripture. My argument is not based on the reasoning of the Sadducees: it is based on the reading of what's in the Torah.


No, I said that I never heard of anyone claiming that the Sadducees were the ones who proclaimed a 364 Day Solar calendar which you implied. I simply took what is written in the Torah and laid it out thoroughly without any bias or appeal to outside authority. Let's keep in mind that Jesus' main attacks on the Pharisees and the Sadducees was not on the law but, their hypocrisy in regards to the law.


I used the passage above to show that new moon is not being used in the way many force the term on the word month. The passage above shows in context that the new moon was not the physical moon but, the beginning of the 1st Day of the Month. This is solidified further on the third day of David's absence when it says that was also the 2nd Day of the Month.

As for the absence of an organization under Saul: let's keep in mind that the priesthood was established with Aaron which at the time of Saul's reign was ~400 Years ago. Why Samuel was brought to the priest was he not? And Eli served as the high priest...so I am not sure where you get the idea that there was no priestly setup. And let's not forget that even before the priesthood that from Moses back to Adam: no one had any problems keeping track of the days of the year. The story of Noah proves that the timeframe which passed during the 1 Year and 10 Days on the Ark could only be accomplished and worked out on a solar calendar, not a lunar calendar.


Yes I have considered this and have no qualms about the translation for the Hebrew word for month. Have you noticed that in nature the Sun's light is renewed each morning and extinguished each evening? Each day is the beginning of a new day in which the light of the Sun is renewed, literally, made new again. Limiting the word CHoDeSH to only the Moon is contrary to what we read in Genesis 1:14-19 where the Sun, Moon and stars are to be for signs, seasons, days, and years; weeks and months are not mentioned because it is understood that they are composed of the total number of days which make up the year. The leader of the day according to God and Moses is the Sun--not the Moon and the stars--as it rules the day and divides it from the night: therefore the Sun is the leader of the months of the year: therefore God's calendar is solar.


If there were no need for the other five months then please explain why Moses goes through the effort of mentioning the 10th Month in the story of Noah (Genesis 8:5)? And why do king David and king Solomon bother to setup their officers according to the twelve months of the year (1 Kings 4:7-18, 1 Chronicles 27:1-15)?

The barley is irrelevant because God clearly tells us through Moses that we track time with the luminaries, not produce. While spring is a good indicator for beginning the new year it alone does not tell us precisely when and where we are in the year if we want to keep track of the appointed times: that is why God instituted a solar calendar which we could easily observe and calculate.

Now I kindly provided my proofs and showed how and why they align with scripture. I also kindly and patiently proved how according to scripture in post #53 the Moon is not the leader of the months in any of its phases. If you would be so kind sister Lulav to point out any error in that for me to correct then I will look over your counterpoints and concede and admit my errors. If you cannot find fault with the evidence I have presented then will you please concede instead of holding onto your pride for the sake of saving face?

Question;
Are you certain there are only 12 months to be observed every calendrical yr, no more nor less?

 

[pinacled]

As for your comment on circumcision it has nothing to do with the way the luminaries function.

true, circumcision isn t about how the luminaries function so much as pertaining to the discussion.
Instead focus more on what Yom(day they were created.

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

Question;
Are you certain there are only 12 months to be observed every calendrical yr, no more nor less?

Yes, read 1 Kings 4:7-18 where it says that king Solomon numbered his officers after the months of the year; and, 1 Chronicles 27:1-15 where king David did the same and it explains that the number of months are numbered after the sons of Jacob.

true, circumcision isn t about how the luminaries function so much as pertaining to the discussion.
Instead focus more on what Yom(day they were created.

Yes I have and challenged you and sister visionary to answer post #53.

 

[pinacled]

Yes, read 1 Kings 4:7-18 where it says that king Solomon numbered his officers after the months of the year; and, 1 Chronicles 27:1-15 where king David did the same and it explains that the number of months are numbered after the sons of Jacob.


Yes I have and challenged you and sister visionary to answer post #53.

Fair enough of a response. Courses of 24 is it?
Again with clarity. I ask that you explore the terrain of the Torah further. Specifically implore a meditation and focus(fruit of self discipline)appropriately applied to the breast plate of righteousness(12 stones on the garment.?

Pay closer attention to details.

Are you perhaps presuming their are only 12 tribes?

 

[visionary]

At sister visionary and pinacled

The very first mention of the Moon is in Genesis 1:14-19: please prove where God or Moses says in this passage that it starts as a new moon (i.e. crescent moon) which signals the beginning of each month. You should be able to do this without jumping ahead or citing other sources. I will even aid you in giving you two a head start:

Month 01 (Gen 1:1-19)
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 (Gen 1:1-2:3)
29 30 31 01 02 03 04 (Gen 1:14-19)
05 06 07 08 09 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 01 02

Legend Key:
Blue-gray = New Moon
Red = End of previous month or Beginning of following month

We see that just beginning with the 1st Day of the 1st Month of the 1st Year of Creation there are two new moons within the same month...therefore this already shows a major weakness in the theory that new moons--or the Moon in any of its phases--begins each month of the year.

I see nothing in your count.. It lacks explanation.. It is a blue moon to have two moons in the same month. But then again that is on a Gregorian calendar.

 

[Lulav]

Lulav said: ↑
The "first-fruits of the harvest" were offered on the 16th day of Nisan, from that fruit which ripened first in Palestine—barley (but see Men. 84a)—and with considerable ceremony, in order to emphasize dissent from the Sadducean interpretation of the Scripture text, "the morrow after the Sabbath" (Lev. xxiii. 11), which is, according to the Sadducees, always Sunday (Men. 65b).​

I will say you are making a gross logical error here sister Lulav.

I never said that at all: Here is the line of exchange

As we can clearly see from the above evidence Passover will always fall on a Tuesday on God's 364 Day Solar Calendar.

And I responded with a question:

Kind of like the Sadducees calendar which makes first fruits always on a Sunday?

Uhhh....I never heard of that but, I wouldn't be so quick to say that the Sadducees or the Pharisees did that.

You said you never heard of it and then implied that I made that up. It's a known fact and I just gave proof of it without any comment from myself.

Lulav said: ↑
The "first-fruits of the harvest" were offered on the 16th day of Nisan, from that fruit which ripened first in Palestine—barley (but see Men. 84a)—and with considerable ceremony, in order to emphasize dissent from the Sadducean interpretation of the Scripture text, "the morrow after the Sabbath" (Lev. xxiii. 11), which is, according to the Sadducees, always Sunday

That is from here The Jewish Encyclopedia

You are saying that because the Sadducees were condemned by Christ that everything they do is therefore wrong...this is a huge error as that means by this logic one error in a man or woman makes everything they did before wrong. That is like me saying that because my parents made one error in raising me that they know nothing about parenthood. And your citation above proves that the Pharisees wished to assert their own authority over that of what is clearly stated in scripture. My argument is not based on the reasoning of the Sadducees: it is based on the reading of what's in the Torah.

I said nothing of the sort. Show me where I spoke of the Sadducees being condemned by Yeshua, I never said anything close to that.

No, I said that I never heard of anyone claiming that the Sadducees were the ones who proclaimed a 364 Day Solar calendar which you implied. I simply took what is written in the Torah and laid it out thoroughly without any bias or appeal to outside authority. Let's keep in mind that Jesus' main attacks on the Pharisees and the Sadducees was not on the law but, their hypocrisy in regards to the law.

No I implied nothing, I merely posted from the JE about First fruits always being on the same day. I never said anything about the Sadducess proclaiming a 364 day solar calendar nor implied it anywhere. I don't know where you are getting this stuff. I was merely trying to have a discussion on visionary's thread. You are taking it way off base.

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

I see nothing in your count.. It lacks explanation.. It is a blue moon to have two moons in the same month. But then again that is on a Gregorian calendar.

That is not a Gregorian calendar sister, that calendar is based off of the reading of Genesis 1:14-19 which makes the 1st Day of the Month fall on the 4th Day of the Week. This same truth so happen when you align the current Jewish calendar.

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

Fair enough of a response. Courses of 24 is it?
Again with clarity. I ask that you explore the terrain of the Torah further. Specifically implore a meditation and focus(fruit of self discipline)appropriately applied to the breast plate of righteousness(12 stones on the garment.?

Pay closer attention to details.

Are you perhaps presuming their are only 12 tribes?

The 12 tribes are named after the 12 sons of Jacob: a clear truth...no presumption there brother. And the 12 stones are named after the 12 sons of Jacob.

 

[Lulav]

Are you perhaps presuming their are only 12 tribes?

Depends on which list you read.

Joseph was divided into two, for his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.

Just as there were 13 Apostles, the original 12 and then Mattathias.

Funny the Jewish calendar has 12 months in a year and sometimes 13.

 

[pinacled]

The 12 tribes are named after the 12 sons of Jacob: a clear truth...no presumption there brother. And the 12 stones are named after the 12 sons of Jacob.

Fair enough, and thank you for the conversation. I enjoy your zeal and imagine you are a wonderful father to your children.

As for the breast plate of righteousness.
Do you know of a scripture that names one of the stones of children after Levi?
If so I would consider it an honor if you have found instructions where each of the 12 stones have been specifically named.

Blessings Always

 

[visionary]

That is not a Gregorian calendar sister, that calendar is based off of the reading of Genesis 1:14-19 which makes the 1st Day of the Month fall on the 4th Day of the Week. This same truth so happen when you align the current Jewish calendar.

Nope.. don't see month mentioned in those verses.

 

[visionary]

At sister visionary and pinacled

The very first mention of the Moon is in Genesis 1:14-19: please prove where God or Moses says in this passage that it starts as a new moon (i.e. crescent moon) which signals the beginning of each month. You should be able to do this without jumping ahead or citing other sources. I will even aid you in giving you two a head start:

Month 01 (Gen 1:1-19)
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 (Gen 1:1-2:3)
29 30 31 01 02 03 04 (Gen 1:14-19)
05 06 07 08 09 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 01 02

Legend Key:
Blue-gray = New Moon
Red = End of previous month or Beginning of following month

We see that just beginning with the 1st Day of the 1st Month of the 1st Year of Creation there are two new moons within the same month...therefore this already shows a major weakness in the theory that new moons--or the Moon in any of its phases--begins each month of the year.

Makes no sense to me.. there is too much jumping to conclusions.

 

[pinacled]

Makes no sense to me.. there is too much jumping to conclusions.

In honesty I do understand a part of the pattern he has been shown.
Very encouraging to find someone of youth that has strong roots.

I look forward to future conversations about the Mishkhan(tabernacle..

 

[pinacled]

The first command with a promise are The two hidden stones known as the..urim...and
.th...
Honor them and consider what has been promisesed since the beginning.

Two red clouds are coming

 

[visionary]

The first command with a promise are The two hidden stones known as the..urim...and
.th...
Honor them and consider what has been promisesed since the beginning.

Two red clouds are coming

To have a ridged month start bases on days and not the moon needs more evidence rather than a declaration.

 

[pinacled]

To have a ridged month start bases on days and not the moon needs more evidence rather than a declaration.

What better than to have two red clouds with two blue moons to show a royal yr.

As the youngin ask and explores the ten he found with proper guidance. I hope he is looking forward and ready.
With the 4 elements or states of matter as they are currently presented, compare what the sages are to teach from the Torah. Especialy in vayikra to the tribe of Levi which yochanon(john the Baptist) was born. While visiting the Shekinah the Lord showed me many things before I ever read the Holy scripture.



Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

What better than to have two red clouds with two blue moons to show a royal yr.

As the youngin ask and explores the ten he found with proper guidance. I hope he is looking forward and ready.
With the 4 elements or states of matter as they are currently presented, compare what the sages are to teach from the Torah. Especialy in vayikra to the tribe of Levi which yochanon(john the Baptist) was born. While visiting the Shekinah the Lord showed me many things before I ever read the Holy scripture.



Blessings Always

with a well knit net.

While walking in prayer with a strength of forgiveness Remember always to inspect the fish. Being that murder is the unforgivable, measure the catch.

Though tradition teaches what is kosher for men. It doesn't mean the entire is of no value. Hence the term net and gross value. Take for example a catch is measured as ten and one tenth is inedible.

Would a person take the choice portion and feed their livestock? No, the choice portion like the Shabbat is made for man. The livestock such as dogs, pets, and a myriad of other animals are given fed in due courses.

For example, If I have a wife, three children, two dogs, and two birds. Would I ever way the value of my families life above the animals? Would I feed my wife and children scraps while giving the dogs the meat. No, nor would I feed the birds at the bread while leaving the children to grind their teeth on grain.

A princilpe of Torah written on the Heart should be apparent to all. But no, there are those that despise feeding the good.

Instead they offer out of the evilness a well of death, scorn, and hate for those who exhibit Love for the Most High.