I find the Old Testament difficult, also

[Lenno]

I find the Old Testament difficult. Also the idea that the ot is about god’s covenant with the people of Israel does not sit comfortably with me.

do any other Christians sympathise with the treatment of the Palestinians?

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Disclaimer: this post is coming from the perspective of an Israelite. I won't speak on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Deuteronomy 7:7 "The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people"

God adopted Israel to be His children, not because they were great but because they were the least of all people. I liken it to video games when you set 'handicap' on one of the players to give them an advantage on the playing field because they'd get thrown out of the ring immediately if they played by their own skills.

Israel would not have remained a nation or a people without God being on their side.

If you read the Exodus account carefully, besides Israel being brought out of Egypt, there was a mixed multitude. (Exodus 12:38) At Sinai when God made his covenant with Israel, the mixed multitude was there and were included in that covenant.

I'm not really sure why the Old Testament doesn't sit comfortably with you. If you could explain your discomfort in greater detail maybe I can put your troubled thoughts at ease. Though I'd like to point out that the New Testament is also about God's covenant with Israel--and any of the gentiles who will be grafted in. So if you are uncomfortable with the Old Testament, you'll, likewise, have to be uncomfortable with the New.

The entire bible revolves around the nation of Israel. God gave His laws to Israel. So it's a book of law and commandments of the nation; a constitution. It's a history book and it's a book of prophesy--all regarding the nation of Israel and every country and people who comes in contact with them.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

The two covenants may seem at odds with one another, but I believe there are unifying concepts God wants to teach us.

I chose my avatar with this in mind.

 

[Vesper_Jaye✝️]

I don’t really like how it seems like God plays favorites with the Jews instead of just all believers being his chosen people? And God seems kinda murderous in the OT…

 

[expos4ever]

I understand where you are coming from. However, at the risk of making a vast sweeping statement that would need to be carefully defended, I will say that investing time in the Old Testament is indispensable to a rich, complete understanding of God's overall plan for the redemption of humanity that reached its climax at the cross.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

I don’t really like how it seems like God plays favorites with the Jews instead of just all believers being his chosen people? And God seems kinda murderous in the OT…

Romans 2:11 "For there is no respect of persons with God.”

Acts 10:34-36 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

There is no favoritism with God. If a husband and wife go to an orphanage to adopt a child because they desperately want one of their own, and they see a blind child and their heart is moved with compassion and love for the blind child over the others--who not only are strong and capable but have potential adoptive parents--and so this couple adopts the blind child, did they play favorites or did they take pity?

Ezekiel 16:4 And as for thy nativity [speaking to Jerusalem--a.k.a Israel], in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all. None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born. And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

What makes the Bible unique is that God, who choose Israel to be His children, does not mince His words when recounting their (our) sins and their (our) abominations. No where in the world, has a God saved a people, established them as a nation, and when they rebelled against God, were driven from the land which He gave them.

What god has exiled his own people for being rebellious and adulterous?

That's not favoritism on God's part. That's a father who recognizes His children misbehaving and disciplining and/or punishing them. Favoritism would be saying 'My kid does no wrong' and doing nothing to correct them when they have wronged another. Yet God has never done that; he has rebuked Israel for all the wrong they've (we've) done, and sent the Assyrians and Babylonians against us and took away our inheritance.

Being His people, he holds them (us) to greater expectations and higher standards than the nations round about. To whom much is given, much is expected. But He made a covenant with us and so whether you're physical Israel or spiritual Israel--if you fear God and obey God, you are His people, too, whether by birth or adoption. For even Israel was adopted in the beginning.

 

[Vesper_Jaye✝️]

Being His people, he holds them (us) to greater expectations and higher standards than the nations round about. To whom much is given, much is expected. But He made a covenant with us and so whether you're physical Israel or spiritual Israel--if you fear God and obey God, you are His people, too, whether by birth or adoption. For even Israel was adopted in the beginning.

Are you saying that Israel in the New Testament can refer also to Christians who are not Israelites? Sorry if I misunderstood something

 

[Vesper_Jaye✝️]

There is no favoritism with God. If a husband and wife go to an orphanage to adopt a child because they desperately want one of their own, and they see a blind child and their heart is moved with compassion and love for the blind child over the others--who not only are strong and capable but have potential adoptive parents--and so this couple adopts the blind child, did they play favorites or did they take pity?

I hope this doesn’t sound rude but God in the OT seems more like he would adopt the blind kid and then shoot the rest. Can you explain why God kills so many people in the OT?

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Are you saying that Israel in the New Testament can refer also to Christians who are not Israelites? Sorry if I misunderstood something

Yes. Any Christian who is not genetically Israelite can still be an Israelite. Think of it like a last name.

I was born Isaac Israelite; my friend was born John Smith. If John Smith loves my Father and wants to obey my father and do good works in the name of my father, my father--whose love is boundless--will adopt him at the drop of a hat. And John Smith will now be John Israelite, my brother.

Blood and genetics mean nothing. And that was the message Christ was giving to the Pharisees "Don't say that we have Abraham to our father". Meaning: blood ancestry isn't going to save you, or get you into the kingdom. Your faith and works of faith are what make you an Israelite and what will get you into the kingdom of God.

I hope this doesn’t sound rude but God in the OT seems more like he would adopt the blind kid and then shoot the rest. Can you explain why God kills so many people in the OT?

I don't even know how you can come to this conclusion. What situation, what verse makes you think that?

Deuteronomy 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Evil cannot exist in God's kingdom. There is zero tolerance for evil; whether your foreign born or whether your native born, if you are evil, you either need to be counseled/reformed or you are put to death. This doesn't come from hatred; it comes from being logical. You cannot have peace, while wickedness reigns. If someone is a murderer and that murderer is going to continue murdering--God is going remove the murderer. Why should the innocent suffer at the hands of the wicked?

Those who oppose God and exalt themselves above God, will also be removed. Are they a threat to God--no. Are they a threat to His people and those who wish to become His people; yes.

If God were going to 'shoot the other kids'; he would never have offered repentance to the Gentiles unto eternal life. (Acts 11:18)

 

[HARK!]

I find the Old Testament difficult. Also the idea that the ot is about god’s covenant with the people of Israel does not sit comfortably with me.

do any other Christians sympathise with the treatment of the Palestinians?

Israel was Israel before Moses. YHWH made his covenant with Israel before they were in the land.


The covenant isn't with the land.


It is with his people. Who are his people? Many who were born of Jacob (Israel) didn't enter covenant in Egypt. They were not in the covenant with Israel. Many who were not descendants of Jacob (Israel) did enter covenant with YHWH in Egypt, and again at Sinai.

This demonstrated that YHWH's covenant is not exclusive to bloodline.

YHWH is not a racist. Those who were not descendants of Jacob, who entered covenant, became fellow citizens of Israel. The branches that rebelled against him were cut out.

Nothing has changed today. YHWH doesn't change.



(CLV) Eph 2:11
Wherefore, remember that once (Not any more!) you, the nations [Ger] in flesh (Not any more!)—who are termed "Uncircumcision" (Not any more!) by those termed "Circumcision," in flesh, made by hands—

(CLV) Eph 2:12
that you were (Not any more!), in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated [Ger]from the citizenship of Israel, (Not any more!)and guests of the promise covenants (plural),(Not any more!) having no expectation,(Not any more!) and without God in the world.(Not any more!)

(CLV) Eph 2:19
Consequently, then, not longer (Not any more!)are you guests [Ger Toshav] (Not any more!)and sojourners [Ger], (Not any more!)but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's family,

Welcome to Yashar EL!
ישראל​

 

[Vesper_Jaye✝️]

I don't even know how you can come to this conclusion. What situation, what verse makes you think that?

God’s judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah (idk if I spelled that right) and the flood. He wasn’t just killing sinful men and women- he killed innocent children who were too young to have done anything wrong. He killed animals that were not capable of doing wrong or right. Can you explain why God would do that?

 

[Benjamin Müller]

God’s judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah (idk if I spelled that right) and the flood. He wasn’t just killing sinful men and women- he killed innocent children who were too young to have done anything wrong. He killed animals that were not capable of doing wrong or right. Can you explain why God would do that?

Genesis 18:32 "And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten [righteous] shall be found there [in Sodom and Gomorrah]. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake."

Were the children innocent? Each generation gets worse and worse. Any children in Sodom and Gomorrah saw homosexuality as a "normal" thing. And due to rampant homosexual behavior there would have been a lack of children anyway as men and women were not procreating.

Jonah 4:11 "And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?"

If God was willing to spare Nineveh in the Old Testament, do you think he wouldn't have done it in Sodom and Gomorrah, in which Abraham pleaded for him not to destroy if righteous men where found there?

As for animals. God spared the animals on Noah's ark. Look at the nature of animals now--my family and I just had a fox slaughter six of our chickens. Where and when did the nature of animals become so violent? Violence is not God's nature. God says that the wolf will lay down with the lamb; that they will no longer hurt nor destroy in all his holy mountain. In the world tomorrow, the nature of animals will be changed. (Isaiah 11:6-9)

The animals which God had created were corrupted by man at some point. Even the docile animals were tainted by man. Any man who lays with a beast (inappropriate behavior with animals) is to be put to death as well as the animal. (Leviticus 20:15-16) Did the animal do anything wrong? No. But the animal's been tainted. Mammals have brains like we do and you look at the effects of rape on humans--that type of defiling can alter the mind of animal for the worst the same way it does in humans. And with the sexual immortality in Sodom and Gomorrah, homosexuality may not have been the only sin they comitted.

Abuse and trauma can have lasting effects on man as well as animals. My great grandfather fought in WW1 and the effects of his alcoholism to cope with what he saw destroyed the family four generations out.

We don't bear our sins alone. Our sins affect others as well, even animals. When it comes right down to it; God didn't destroy the world; we did. For the sake of mankind, God had to set the earth to 'default settings' when he ordered the flood.

 

[Vesper_Jaye✝️]

Genesis 18:32 "And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten [righteous] shall be found there [in Sodom and Gomorrah]. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake."

Were the children innocent? Each generation gets worse and worse. Any children in Sodom and Gomorrah saw homosexuality as a "normal" thing. And due to rampant homosexual behavior there would have been a lack of children anyway as men and women were not procreating.

Jonah 4:11 "And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?"

If God was willing to spare Nineveh in the Old Testament, do you think he wouldn't have done it in Sodom and Gomorrah, in which Abraham pleaded for him not to destroy if righteous men where found there?

As for animals. God spared the animals on Noah's ark. Look at the nature of animals now--my family and I just had a fox slaughter six of our chickens. Where and when did the nature of animals become so violent? Violence is not God's nature. God says that the wolf will lay down with the lamb; that they will no longer hurt nor destroy in all his holy mountain. In the world tomorrow, the nature of animals will be changed. (Isaiah 11:6-9)

The animals which God had created were corrupted by man at some point. Even the docile animals were tainted by man. Any man who lays with a beast (inappropriate behavior with animals) is to be put to death as well as the animal. (Leviticus 20:15-16) Did the animal do anything wrong? No. But the animal's been tainted. Mammals have brains like we do and you look at the effects of rape on humans--that type of defiling can alter the mind of animal for the worst the same way it does in humans. And with the sexual immortality in Sodom and Gomorrah, homosexuality may not have been the only sin they comitted.

Abuse and trauma can have lasting effects on man as well as animals. My great grandfather fought in WW1 and the effects of his alcoholism to cope with what he saw destroyed the family four generations out.

We don't bear our sins alone. Our sins affect others as well, even animals. When it comes right down to it; God didn't destroy the world; we did. For the sake of mankind, God had to set the earth to 'default settings' when he ordered the flood.

Thank you for explaining.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I find the Old Testament difficult. Also the idea that the ot is about god’s covenant with the people of Israel does not sit comfortably with me.

do any other Christians sympathise with the treatment of the Palestinians?

We are saved by grace. God can save who ever He pleases and does not have to answer anyone.

Look, we are all sinners, under God's wrath. God is holy and thus He must hate sin and evil. The only reason He has not destroyed us all yet is His merciful will to save some. Why He saves some and not others? Everything that God does is for His glory, and He can do what He want because God is sovereign and everything belongs to Him. It is laughable that we in our tiny little minds are telling God what He can or cannot do.

God is very very angry at us. It's a big mistake when Churches barely if at all talk about God's wrath. The Bible actually talks much more about God's wrath than His love. We often do not realize in how much trouble we are with God. God had a good reason when He said that none is righteous, and that He regrets creating us. How and why He then saves is beyond me.

God owes us nothing. Has anyone ever given something to God that God owes Him? God governs over everything, including when a person dies and what way. God gives and God takes. He does everything and allows things for His own glory. That's why He allowed creation to fall, so He can display His mercy and forgiveness. God is also an active God, He runs everything is such way that His perfect will, will be accomplished.

Why Israel? Because He loves them. Not because they are better than any other nation, maybe they are worse than others, but He loves them because He loves them. If He wanted, He could have chosen no nation, and watch us all kill each other and go to hell, and His justice would have been satisfied.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I don’t really like how it seems like God plays favorites with the Jews instead of just all believers being his chosen people? And God seems kinda murderous in the OT…

God does not play favours with anyone, He is a just God, and He must punish all sin, Israelite or not. Look how many times God struck Israel with His anger in OT. Not every Israelite in OT was saved, most weren't.

Look, we are all under God's wrath because of our rebellion. That includes everyone. Because God is holy, He hates sin and wants to destroy all evil. Only because of His love, He has not wiped us out the moment we sinned, so He can out of His mercy save some. Does that mean some are better than others? No. Difference between people in Heaven and people in hell is God's grace. That's it. He gives grace to whom He wants, because everything God does is for His glory and He can do whatever He wants and it is laughable that in our tine little minds we tell God how He ought to be or what He ought to do. God is sovereign, end of.

Does that mean the sins of believers don't get punished. Not at all. The sins of all believers throughout the history are punished in Christ Jesus on the cross, where God's wrath was poured on Jesus, thus justifying His anger. Because of what Jesus did, all believers sins are wiped out and we are clean before God.

Why Israel? Because God loves them. And He loves them because He loves them. Not because Israel is better, not because Israel done something that God heart desires, no, but because God within Him find something why He loves them. Same as every believer.

Why God killed so many in OT? God should has wiped us all out a long time ago. We all belong to hell yesterday. Do you know in how much trouble we are with God? There is a reason He regrets creating us. We are that evil. Why He even bothers to save some is beyond me. God governs and so He govern life and death as well. HE gives life, He takes life, whether it's a 2 day old baby or a 100 years old man, and He can do so by whatever way He pleases, whether it's cancer, old age, murder etc. God does everything for His glory, creation exist for Him and He is an active God so He runs things so His perfect will is fulfilled. Did you know the Bible talks way more about God's wrath than His love? The book of Zachariah for instance starts with God's wrath - that's how much trouble we are in.

All the nations God kills in the promise land, well, He gave them 400 years to repent. They did not, so God punished them. Ninevah had 40 days before destruction, they did repent and God forgave them.

 

[timf]

Can you explain why God kills so many people in the OT?

The Canaanite tribes had a practice of throwing some of their children alive into a fire to worship the god Molech.

Abraham was told that his descendants would not come into the land of Canaan until the cup of iniquity of the inhabitants was full.

One can see an interesting comparison to our world today where killing children for convenience is a well established practice. One might wonder when the cup of our iniquity will be full.

 

[hedrick]

While parts of the OT seem to see those outside Israel as garbage, some of the prophets developed an understanding that Israel was chosen as God' agent to bring the whole world to God. Thus the covenant was not privilege but a mission.

That had begun to work during Jesus' time. There were many non-Jews that didn't want to convert, but who believed in the Biblical God. They attended synagogues, and were regarded as part of that community, although they were not full Jews. The Centurion in Luke 7 may well have been an example.

Part of this development was the idea of the righteous Gentile (non-Jew). You can see this in Romans 2. As a Christian, Paul had his own idea about how the covenant was extended to cover non-Jews. You can see how that worked through the course of Romans.

Christianity largely absorbed those people. But if it hadn't, it's certainly possible that Jewish monotheism would have taken over as Christianity did.

 

[hedrick]

In the ancient near east, every people had its own god. When they won a battle, it meant their god was bigger than their opponents'. This attitude is pretty clear in the earlier parts of the OT. Abraham acknowledged other gods.

While the people who did the final editing of the OT believed there was only one God, and so did the prophets, if you read carefully it's pretty clear that Israel as a whole only came around to the idea that there's just one God around the time of king Josiah.

That still leaves two options: God has elected us. Everyone else is toast. Or God has chosen us to bring all the nations to God. You can see the second view in the prophets, and it was well represented in Jesus' time, but I'm not sure it ever became the only view.

The OT shows all of this if you read it carefully. Christians have generally read the OT from a Christian perspective. I think we need to do this as well. We can see plenty of problems with it, but we can also see God developing the covenant into something that can be fulfilled by Christ.

And even then, Paul made significant changes to reflect the role of Christ and how Christians fit in.

This not a view everyone here will agree with. Plenty of people see the whole Bible as God's words, and will make all kinds of excuses for problems in the OT. I think that completely misunderstands what was going on.

 

[Lost4words]

Let God's will be done and trust in Him.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:(Ezekiel 33:11)