I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell.

[steve_bakr]

I believe that God's mercy precedes his wrath, and His mercy encompasses all of creation.

 

[steve_bakr]

I think that it is important to remember that these writings express the authors opinions, and those opinions are not solely based on their experiences with Christ, but also on their various religious and social economic backgrounds, and their nationality and historical traditions, which have further influenced their writings; had they been written 400 years earlier or later, their opinions would have altered dramatically. As it is, there is a sour note in the harmony here and there based on a one hundred year spread, as education and political climates changed.

Indeed.

 

[dewba]

I don't believe in a forever, fiery hell either. I believe in life without God ("hell"): complete destruction of body and soul. That destruction may be fiery and sulfuric (Rev 21:8) but not constant torture...

Hell = Life without God (no body or soul); even the Devil is still ruled by God...

I would love to know why people think otherwise...what scripture they use (without reading the whole entire thread...).

 

[LutheranMafia]

Finally a real question. But why is the second death the death of the soul?

Combine Revelation 21:8 with Matthew 10:28. Revelation 21:8 says that to burn in the Lake of Fire is the second death, and Matthew 10:28 says that the soul is destroyed in the Lake of Fire. When you take them together it is clear that the second death is the destruction of the soul.

I have addressed this verse many times. The overcomers are God's elect. Why are they not going to be hurt by the second death?

I don't understand your question, the answer seems self-evident. The elect are not hurt by the second death because their soul will not be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

No the second death is a spirtual thing. It will kill death to all thouse who are still under the power of the death of the soul.

The second death is the death of the soul.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

You seem to think this will bring those who have died the second death back from soul death. I think it means that all the wicked will have died the second death (from which there is no coming back) and that without all the evil around there will be no more need to for death as a fail-safe against evil getting out of control while they live.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I would love to know why people think otherwise...what scripture they use (without reading the whole entire thread...).

...twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness (nether gloom) forever.
Jude 1:12-13
​

Twice dead refers to the second death, the death of the soul. However, the spirit is indestructible and wanders in the nether gloom of the outer darkness for eternity

 

[Soulgazer]

...twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness (nether gloom) forever.
Jude 1:12-13
​

Twice dead refers to the second death, the death of the soul. However, the spirit is indestructible and wanders in the nether gloom of the outer darkness for eternity

LM, "twice dead" might just be speech idiom for "very dead", instead of "mostly dead"(shades of the Princess Bride!). Jude did not say anything about the second death; though to be fair the letter is early second century, and the concept of a "second death" was just developing. Still, the usage is idiomatic as illustrated by "clouds without rain", and it was common at the beginning of the second century to believe that those without Christ were already dead--- Thus when the dead die, they are "twice dead". The "blackness of darkness" was in antithesis to those whose "minds are preserved" , also a common belief for those who died in Christ.

 

[LutheranMafia]

LM, "twice dead" might just be speech idiom for "very dead", instead of "mostly dead"(shades of the Princess Bride!).

It is all pure speculation to you, so any speculation, you think, is as good as any other.

Jude did not say anything about the second death

Why is twice dead so vastly different from second death in your mind?

though to be fair the letter is early second century, and the concept of a "second death" was just developing.

So nothing in the gospels really goes back to Jesus, in your opinion?

Still, the usage is idiomatic as illustrated by "clouds without rain"

Or an uprooted tree? Why is that so "idiomatic" and not very plain and straight forward imagery?

and it was common at the beginning of the second century to believe that those without Christ were already dead--- Thus when the dead die, they are "twice dead".

Name one occurance in the Bible of this, rather than your endless references to historical speculation, which leaves room for any kind of belief.

The "blackness of darkness" was in antithesis to those whose "minds are preserved" , also a common belief for those who died in Christ.

The RSV gives the best translation, "nether gloom". The clear reference is to an after death state. Other less exact tranlsations say pits of Hell, but I think that Hell and the Outer Darkness / Abyss are two very different places.

 

[Ed Bana]

Take not. This is what The Book of Revelation says about the second death and it is in context and does not assume anything.

The fourth horse, the Pale Horse. "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and lo a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6:7-8).

There is a special significance to be attached to the description of the fourth horseman -- he whose name is Death -- and Hell followed with him. Death and Hell are specially linked in the Revelation. And since Christ came and abolished death (II Tim. 1:10) and destroyed him that had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb. 2:14), He now boldly proclaims: "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH" (Rev. 1:18). And since the Christ now possesses both hell and death neither of them ride anywhere except by His authority!

Now let us UNDERSTAND! This horse is given power over the fourth part of the earth-realm, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This "fourth part of the earth" is clearly that portion of earthiness not already dealt with by the three preceding horses. It bespeaks of the conclusion, consummation and termination of the process. It means the final subjugation and destruction of everything within us that is contrary to HIS life and kingdom. And all the instruments necessary to accomplish this are in His hands and at His command.
　
To kill with DEATH
There is an amazing and significant statement in the passage that we do not want to miss. "And power was given unto Him to kill...with death."!
How does one kill with death?

What can this cryptic statement mean?

To kill with death means a death by death. Later on in the book of
Revelation the same truth is presented thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of Fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:14). Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire!

"Our God is a consuming fire.

" This fact is extremely IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. Nor is the second death men being tortured forever in the lake of fire.

The Holy Spirit has made it very simple and plain. The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

That is the Holy Spirit's definition, not mine.

Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, i.e. those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire.

That is the end of death and hell and sin and sinners, for God shall destroy the whole realm of death in the lake of fire.

He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, He shall destroy death in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin in the lake of fire.

How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! God's Kingdom shall rule over all and God Himself shall be All-in-all. There shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell

It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death?

How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape?

Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire -- it is sin and death and hell that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). "And there shall be no more death: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH! "And power was given unto them to kill...with death. " 0, the wonder of it!

　

Combine Revelation 21:8 with Matthew 10:28. Revelation 21:8 says that to burn in the Lake of Fire is the second death, and Matthew 10:28 says that the soul is destroyed in the Lake of Fire. When you take them together it is clear that the second death is the destruction of the soul.

I don't understand your question, the answer seems self-evident. The elect are not hurt by the second death because their soul will not be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

The second death is the death of the soul.

You seem to think this will bring those who have died the second death back from soul death. I think it means that all the wicked will have died the second death (from which there is no coming back) and that without all the evil around there will be no more need to for death as a fail-safe against evil getting out of control while they live.

 

[Soulgazer]

It is all pure speculation to you, so any speculation, you think, is as good as any other.

Not at all. I believe that anything taken out of historical context throws it into the land of make believe, so one speculation is not as "as good as any other".

< staff edit > < staff edit >

 

[Ed Bana]

Combine

Revelation 21:8 with Matthew 10:28. Revelation 21:8 says that to burn in the Lake of Fire is the second death, and Matthew 10:28 says that the soul is destroyed in the Lake of Fire. When you take them together it is clear that the second death is the destruction of the soul.

Matthew 10:28 never says that the soul is destroyed in the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is not even mention anywhere in the Bible but the Book of Revelation.

I don't understand your question, the answer seems self-evident. The elect are not hurt by the second death because their soul will not be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

They will not be hurt because they have already gone thought God's firey trials and tribualtions.

The second death is the death of the soul.

That is your opinion. It never says that inRevelation or anywhere else in the Bible. The second death is death killed by death. No more death it will be killed.

You seem to think this will bring those who have died the second death back from soul death. I think it means that all the wicked will have died the second death (from which there is no coming back) and that without all the evil around there will be no more need to for death as a fail-safe against evil getting out of control while they live.

Show me the term soul death? There is no more death. Death was killed by death. If there was such a thing as a soul death as you falsly claim it would be no more for it is dead.

This is allvery spirtual.

 

[Hentenza]

Here it is a third time.

Address it.

This will be the third time that I have addressed it.

The second death is death killed by death

The second death is the physical death thrown into the lake of fire.

There are three deaths in the Bible.

Chapter and verse please.

Physical death which all men understand.

Yep.

Dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1 ) which I call spiritual death or first death.

This is the same as physical death since physical death is the result of sin.

Rom. 5
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Second death. Which is first death killed by the second death.

Nope. The second death is the death thrown into the lake of fire.

The fourth horse, the Pale Horse. "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and lo a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6:7-8).

There is a special significance to be attached to the description of the fourth horseman -- he whose name is Death -- and Hell followed with him. Death and Hell are specially linked in the Revelation. And since Christ came and abolished death (II Tim. 1:10) and destroyed him that had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb. 2:14), He now boldly proclaims: "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH" (Rev. 1:18). And since the Christ now possesses both hell and death neither of them ride anywhere except by His authority!

And by His authority all the wicked will be judged and those whose name are not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire along with satan and his minions. This is not that hard to understand Ed.

BTW- Did you notice that the death depicted in Rev. 6:7-8 pertains to physical death? The power to kill (slay) was given to them to kill the fourth quarter of the earth inhabitants by the sword, by hunger, and by the beasts.

Now let us UNDERSTAND! This horse is given power over the fourth part of the earth-realm, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The power is given to them. Who is them? It is the fourth creature, death, and hell that is given power not the horse.

This "fourth part of the earth" is clearly that portion of earthiness not already dealt with by the three preceding horses. It bespeaks of the conclusion, consummation and termination of the process. It means the final subjugation and destruction of everything within us that is contrary to HIS life and kingdom. And all the instruments necessary to accomplish this are in His hands and at His command.

If that was the case then the book of Revelation would end there but it does not. There are still 2 more seals to open before the interlude and then the 7th seal is opened.
&#12288;

To kill with DEATH

No. To kill TO death.

There is an amazing and significant statement in the passage that we do not want to miss. "And power was given unto Him to kill...with death."!

The power was not given to him but to them (&#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8150;&#962;- pronoun dative plural). Them is both.

How does one kill with death?

What can this cryptic statement mean?

To kill with death means a death by death. Later on in the book of Revelation the same truth is presented thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of Fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:14). Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire!

No we don't have the same meaning by a long shot but now you are arguing for annihilation instead of your pet doctrine of universalism. Which one is it Ed?

"Our God is a consuming fire.

" This fact is extremely IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. Nor is the second death men being tortured forever in the lake of fire.

The Holy Spirit has made it very simple and plain. The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

That is the Holy Spirit's definition, not mine.

No that is your eisegesis of Matthew 3. You do have one point right. The first death, that one which came through sin and tainted mankind, is the one cast into the lake of fire.

Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, i.e. those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire.

Yep. The wicked go to eternal punishment for ever and ever. There is no more death after that so all that are not cast into the lake of fire will live with Christ eternally for ever and ever.

That is the end of death and hell and sin and sinners, for God shall destroy the whole realm of death in the lake of fire.

Wow! Are you now arguing for annihilation?

He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, He shall destroy death in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin in the lake of fire.

Yep.

How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! God's Kingdom shall rule over all and God Himself shall be All-in-all. There shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell

The lake of fire remains for ever and ever.

It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death?

Of course He does not destroy the,. Now you understand the futility of annihilationism.

How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape?

No one dies after the judgment. Those with Christ as with Him forever and ever and those in the lake of fire are punished for ever and ever.

BTW- The result of the judgment of the wicked is depicted in Rev. 21:8.

8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire -- it is sin and death and hell that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). "And there shall be no more death: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH! "And power was given unto them to kill...with death. " 0, the wonder of it!

See above.
&#12288;

 

[Hentenza]

The vast majority of scientists today are theistists, outside of Communist countries of course.

I am using the numbers that I read in a poll that states the 93% of members of the American National Academy of Science are non religious. I can't find the poll at the moment but I'll see if I saved it in my documents when I get home.

You really lost me here. I do not believe that God created a lie that only appears to be enormously old. I do not see God as the cosmic liar.

I was referring to the genre of Genesis 1 and 2. There is no textual evidence that the genre is other then narrative. Secondly, there are many problems with the present dating tools that scientists use. I still recall the dating of rocks around Mount St. Helen in the 80's or 90's that were dated to 40+ millions of years old when they were formed by the eruption of the volcano in 1976.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Not at all. I believe that anything taken out of historical context throws it into the land of make believe, so one speculation is not as "as good as any other".

But your "historical context" is nothing more than wiggle room for any speculation.


< staff edit > < staff edit >

 

[LutheranMafia]

I am using the numbers that I read in a poll that states the 93% of members of the American National Academy of Science are non religious. I can't find the poll at the moment but I'll see if I saved it in my documents when I get home.

This is absolutely wrong:

Nearly 50 percent of them are religious. Many others are what she calls “spiritual entrepreneurs,” seeking creative ways to work with the tensions between science and faith outside the constraints of traditional religion…..only a small minority are actively hostile to religion.
Are Top Scientists Really So Atheistic? Look at the Data | The Intersection | Discover Magazine
​

I was referring to the genre of Genesis 1 and 2. There is no textual evidence that the genre is other then narrative. Secondly, there are many problems with the present dating tools that scientists use. I still recall the dating of rocks around Mount St. Helen in the 80's or 90's that were dated to 40+ millions of years old when they were formed by the eruption of the volcano in 1976.

Talking about biological and geological dating method gives you lots of wiggle room, but not talking about the light from stars and galaxies. For most of the stars in the sky, and ANY of the galaxies to be visible requires God to have created a giant cosmic lie, where light from thousands, millions and billions of years ago were put in place by a malevolent god who intentionally wanted to deceive us. That is not a conception of God that I can believe in.

 

[Ed Bana]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7553603-post58226158/ / post58226158
Hentenza

Here it is a third time.
Address it.
This will be the third time that I have addressed it.

Really? Show me the first two times? I would not want to think someone is lying??

The second death is the physical death thrown into the lake of fire

.

I see this no where in the Bible? You are assuming this. Chapter and verse please?

There are three deaths in the Bible.
Chapter and verse please.

If carnal man can believe on his own freewill or choice you might have a point but the carnal man is dead spiritually to all things spiritual. I quote from 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (amp)“the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned”
Explain to me 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (amp)?
Romans 3: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God..
Why does no one understand or seek after God if he was alive spiritually as you believe all carnal non spiritual mean are seeing you do not see canal man being dead in trespasses and sins?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I know you you do not believe this is nothing but physical death but this is not true. How can some one be made alive in Christ if he is physically dead.

Romans 7:&#12288;24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Was not Paul alive physically? Who can some one alive physically make such a statement? Pau was speaking of the being dead in trespasses and sins.
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Again God’s Word is very clear. This is not speaking of Physical death. God’s Word shows us this terrible death realm of the carnal mind.

Physical death which all men understand.
Yep.

Any carnal man knows this.

Dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1 ) which I call spiritual death or first death.
This is the same as physical death since physical death is the result of sin.

How can it be? This is speaking of a carnal man is saved. Yes a physical dead man will be saved by grace in the ages to come by the Tabernacle of David. But this verse is not addressing the Tabernacle of David is addressing how carnal man is dead in trespasses and sins. does God quicken together in Christ if he is physically dead? Note vs. 5. The first speaks of how God has to quicken us out of dead and trespasses and sin non spiritual condition.
Eph, 2:1 And you hath (he quickened,) who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

 

[Hentenza]

This is absolutely wrong:

Nearly 50 percent of them are religious. Many others are what she calls &#8220;spiritual entrepreneurs,&#8221; seeking creative ways to work with the tensions between science and faith outside the constraints of traditional religion&#8230;..only a small minority are actively hostile to religion.
Are Top Scientists Really So Atheistic? Look at the Data | The Intersection | Discover Magazine​

I am fine with the article from discover magazine and I pray that you are right. We certainly need more God in science. As I stated I was using the numbers that I read in a poll from the members of the American Academy of Science.

ETA: BTW- Here is a 1998 study by Larson and Witham.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

Talking about biological and geological dating method gives you lots of wiggle room, but not talking about the light from stars and galaxies. For most of the stars in the sky, and ANY of the galaxies to be visible requires God to have created a giant cosmic lie, where light from thousands, millions and billions of years ago were put in place by a malevolent god who intentionally wanted to deceive us. That is not a conception of God that I can believe in.

God does not want to deceive us. The question of time of light is not just one that affects creationists. The secular folks are fighting the same issue to explain the formation of galaxies.

The answer to me is fairly simple. Adam was created as a fully grown man with blood flowing through his veins and oxygen within the flow of blood. The creation is analogous to Adam's creation in that God created the planets, starts, the greater light, and the lesser light in movement not static.

 

[Hentenza]

Hentenza



Really? Show me the first two times? I would not want to think someone is lying??


.

I see this no where in the Bible? You are assuming this. Chapter and verse please?

If carnal man can believe on his own freewill or choice you might have a point but the carnal man is dead spiritually to all things spiritual. I quote from 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (amp)“the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned”
Explain to me 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (amp)?
Romans 3: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God..
Why does no one understand or seek after God if he was alive spiritually as you believe all carnal non spiritual mean are seeing you do not see canal man being dead in trespasses and sins?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I know you you do not believe this is nothing but physical death but this is not true. How can some one be made alive in Christ if he is physically dead.

Romans 7:&#12288;24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Was not Paul alive physically? Who can some one alive physically make such a statement? Pau was speaking of the being dead in trespasses and sins.
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Again God’s Word is very clear. This is not speaking of Physical death. God’s Word shows us this terrible death realm of the carnal mind.



Any carnal man knows this.

How can it be? This is speaking of a carnal man is saved. Yes a physical dead man will be saved by grace in the ages to come by the Tabernacle of David. But this verse is not addressing the Tabernacle of David is addressing how carnal man is dead in trespasses and sins. does God quicken together in Christ if he is physically dead? Note vs. 5. The first speaks of how God has to quicken us out of dead and trespasses and sin non spiritual condition.
Eph, 2:1 And you hath (he quickened,) who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

I posted the verses supporting my statements in my post (which you did not quote). Please address my posts with care. Thanks.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The secular folks are fighting the same issue to explain the formation of galaxies.

I don't know of any meaningful or even minor controversy on this matter in science. Everyone agrees that the universe is billions of years old. A million times older than YEC's say it is.

The answer to me is fairly simple. Adam was created as a fully grown man with blood flowing through his veins and oxygen within the flow of blood. The creation is analogous to Adam's creation in that God created the planets, starts, the greater light, and the lesser light in movement not static.

In the context it is saying that the universe is a lie, intentionally designed to deceive. That is not a god that I can believe in.

 

[Soulgazer]

But your "historical context" is nothing more than wiggle room for any speculation.

You made it quite clear that you were dimissive of my point of view, based on nothing more than asinine presumption of the supposed historical reasons for not taking the Bible at face value.

Of course, you give excellent reaons why the Bible should never be taken at face value and should always be twisted to your shallow belief system.

I see. Because I know who where and when, you can dismiss my opinions because factually they don't match your fantasies? Shame on you. You know nothing of what I believe, and you pass judgment. Double shame on you, because you are twice dead.

 

[Hentenza]

I don't know of any meaningful or even minor controversy on this matter in science. Everyone agrees that the universe is billions of years old. A million times older than YEC's say it is.

Not even close.

Four in 10 Americans Believe in Strict Creationism

In the context it is saying that the universe is a lie, intentionally designed to deceive. That is not a god that I can believe in.

I disagree. Just because secular science claims it does not make God a liar.