I believe we have no sin, as said in John 1:29 & John 16:8 KJV.

[Kenneth Redden]

So we are in the same day as the sinning Christians in the first century. I had thought those verses did not apply to us now or were out of context for us because we are in a different day. Am confused on the concept now, need a decoder.

No, the entire KJV Bible was said before the big bang. Well, almost all; save the text added on this fourth day of the creation, like Genesis 2:1.

 

[SkyWriting]

[Gen 22:8 KJV] 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.[/QUOTE]

I think not. Hence, we exist.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

No, the entire KJV Bible was said before the big bang.

That statement is not helping me decode the point. You said the 1st Century sinning of Christians depicted in the NT is out of context for us today and I had assumed that because they were seen as living in a different "day". My misunderstanding about what "day" it is now (same day as then) was corrected, but I still do not get how 1st century Christians taught by the Apostles can be said to be sinning, but we are not sinning today.

Perhaps the issue is a view of "freedom" from sin and the law, which I sort of get but not to the point of our being able to claim we do not sin. Also in regards to "freedom", even our forgiveness of our sins does not obviously absolve us from the punishment and/or being held accountable for our sins, true temporally or in the next life in my understanding of the orthodox view of our sins and the punishment for them.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

[Gen 22:8 KJV] 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

I think not. Hence, we exist.

Okay, fine. Do you have any scripture to support your position?
Why are we, and what is; hence?

 

[Kenneth Redden]

I believe there is no end to the scripture, which may be provided to support my position.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

That statement is not helping me decode the point. You said the 1st Century sinning of Christians depicted in the NT is out of context for us today and I had assumed that because they were seen as living in a different "day". My misunderstanding about what "day" it is now (same day as then) was corrected, but I still do not get how 1st century Christians taught by the Apostles can be said to be sinning, but we are not sinning today.

It may be hard to explain to you the multi-dispensational aspect of the days of the creation, without you having an awareness of Paul's demonstration in 2 Peter 3:3-8.

Perhaps the issue is a view of "freedom" from sin and the law, which I sort of get but not to the point of our being able to claim we do not sin. Also in regards to "freedom", even our forgiveness of our sins does not obviously absolve us from the punishment and/or being held accountable for our sins, true temporally or in the next life in my understanding of the orthodox view of our sins and the punishment for them.

That all sounds like "Christian" rationalization. It does not apply.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It may be hard to explain to you the multi-dispensational aspect of the days of the creation, without you having as awareness of Paul's demonstration in 2 Peter 3:3-8.
That all sounds like "Christian" rationalization. It does not apply.

I thought you said we are in the same day as the 1st Century Christians are. Either it is the same day or it is not. Am not sure how a multi-dispensation aspect of "days" explains why all Christians already said to be in the same "day" could be told very different things about their sins.

Am not sure why rationalizing that a sin committed, even after forgiven/repentance, will still have temporal consequece would not apply to the idea seemingly presented here that we are "free" from sin. I could accept the idea we do not have to be a slave to sin or the law, and maybe that is what is meant, rather than being free to sin or not able to sin or free from the punishment of sin. I have been commenting and asking because I was not sure what all the OP was expressing we can be freed from. And still not clear on it.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

I thought you said we are in the same day as the 1st Century Christians are. Either it is the same day or it is not. Am not sure how a multi-dispensation aspect of "days" explains why all Christians already said to be in the same "day" could be told very different things about their sins.

I never said that we are in the same day as the 1st Century Christians. A multi-dispensational aspect of days may be seen with the plurality of the words, "heavens," and, "generations," in Genesis 2:4.

Am not sure why rationalizing that a sin committed, even after forgiven/repentance, will still have temporal consequece would not apply to the idea seemingly presented here that we are "free" from sin. I could accept the idea we do not have to be a slave to sin or the law, and maybe that is what is meant, rather than being free to sin or not able to sin or free from the punishment of sin. I have been commenting and asking because I was not sure what all the OP was expressing we can be freed from. And still not clear on it.

Your first rationalization is to think that your concept of, "forgiven/repentance," has anything whatsoever to do with the KJV Interpretation. It does not.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

God's Law is eternal. The scriptures are just tiny bits of knowledge that is used by God to prove to us servants that our testimonies ( stories we write from the mind of Christ ) are true and accurate with the knowledge of Christ. Christ is the thoughts of God that are pure without Satan and the beast that inspired all the inhabitants on earth to worship the world and the false gods they build with their human hands according to the beast in their thoughts.

St. John was told by God that there wouldn't be enough libraries on earth to contain all the knowledge of Christ.

Okay; but that concept of the KJV Bible, does not work for me. I will continue my study; until it is made unavailable, thank you.

 

[SkyWriting]

God's Law is eternal. The scriptures are just tiny bits of knowledge that is used by God to prove to us servants that our testimonies ( stories we write from the mind of Christ ) are true and accurate with the knowledge of Christ. Christ is the thoughts of God that are pure without Satan and the beast that inspired all the inhabitants on earth to worship the world and the false gods they build with their human hands according to the beast in their thoughts.
St. John was told by God that there wouldn't be enough libraries on earth to contain all the knowledge of Christ.

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

That statement is not helping me decode the point. You said the 1st Century sinning of Christians depicted in the NT is out of context for us today and I had assumed that because they were seen as living in a different "day". My misunderstanding about what "day" it is now (same day as then) was corrected, but I still do not get how 1st century Christians taught by the Apostles can be said to be sinning, but we are not sinning today.

Perhaps the issue is a view of "freedom" from sin and the law, which I sort of get but not to the point of our being able to claim we do not sin. Also in regards to "freedom", even our forgiveness of our sins does not obviously absolve us from the punishment and/or being held accountable for our sins, true temporally or in the next life in my understanding of the orthodox view of our sins and the punishment for them.

I believe it is about, “dispensation”, as a universe in which to handle the affairs of the requirements of any generation. "To day" we of this earth, are of the generation of the space/time continuum, which may be known as, "the dispensation of the grace of God," in Ephesians 3:2, in which, "grace," may be used in Ephesians 2:8.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I believe it is about, “dispensation”, as a universe in which to handle the affairs of the requirements of any generation. "To day" we of this earth, are of the generation of the space/time continuum, which may be known as, "the dispensation of the grace of God," in Ephesians 3:2, in which, "grace," may be used in Ephesians 2:8.

Catholics have been all about the dispensation of God's Grace, we do a form of it daily 24/7/365 and we have other forms of Sacraments which dispense Grace. But the Church has always recognized/taught that we all sin and that even though forgiven we all face temporal punishment for our sins. Sin means death, something always dies (my Baptist Pastor was found of saying.)

 

[Kenneth Redden]

Catholics have been all about the dispensation of God's Grace, we do a form of it daily 24/7/365 and we have other forms of Sacraments which dispense Grace. But the Church has always recognized/taught that we all sin and that even though forgiven we all face temporal punishment for our sins. Sin means death, something always dies (my Baptist Pastor was found of saying.)

Yes, but like the word, "faith," in Ephesians 2:8, you have used the wrong meaning for, "dispensation," in Ephesians 3:2. This takes the focus off of Christ and onto the Church, in what may be considered as an, "adulterous relationship."

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, but like the word, "faith," in Ephesians 2:89, you have used the wrong meaning for, "dispensation," in Ephesians 3:2. This takes the focus off of Christ and onto the Church, in what may be considered as an, "adulterous relationship."

And someone has the wrong view of a Church teaching - (like that does not happen often). The Church has it all online so people can both verify something and correct their misunderstanding before making comments. I can understand looking there makes snarky comments about the Church inconvenient, but who wants to look totally ignorant. It is all about a focus on Christ and it is all online.

Dispensing His Grace (my bold added):
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 2

1116 Jesus' words and actions during his hidden life and public ministry were already salvific, for they anticipated the power of his Paschal mystery. They announced and prepared what he was going to give the Church when all was accomplished. The mysteries of Christ's life are the foundations of what he would henceforth dispense in the sacraments, through the ministers of his Church, for "what was visible in our Savior has passed over into his mysteries."32

1116 Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ,33 which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.

So come again on where my focus is "off".

 

[Kenneth Redden]

And someone has the wrong view of a Church teaching - (like that does not happen often). The Church has it all online so people can both verify something and correct their misunderstanding before making comments. I can understand looking there makes snarky comments about the Church inconvenient, but who wants to look totally ignorant. It is all about a focus on Christ and it is all online.

Ok then, what is the meaning of Ephesians 2:8, and what is the meaning of Ephesians 3:2?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Ok then, what is the meaning of Ephesians 2:8, and what is the meaning of Ephesians 3:2?

Eph 2:28 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

Same thing it means here except here it is in more detail as a Gift from God and not as was falsely something which takes the focus off of Christ and onto the Church:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 2

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood", but from "my Father who is in heaven". Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'"
166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.
176 Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an assent of the intellect and will to the self-revelation God has made through his deeds and words.
179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God. In order to believe, man needs the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.

And here
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 2
91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: ​

Again as the Church states in the Catechism, Grace is a gift from and dispensed by God. Which here Saint Paul is claiming God's Gift of Grace was given him to be an Apostle called to preach to others ("youward" - toward you - the Gentiles in context here)

Is Saint Paul explaining the Personal (meaning by Jesus) Revelation of God to him of the same message given to the Apostles by the same Jesus - a grace the Saint goes on to claim is given him to preach to others (Gentiles specifically) as the Apostles do, preaching the same "mysteries" and "unsearchable riches of Christ" as they do.

So Saint Paul is declaring to other Christians in a letter written to an early 1st century Church is a personal and unique grace for and as a claim to be an Apostle in addition to the original 12 personally mentored by God for three years.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

Eph 2:28 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

Same thing it means here except here it is in more detail as a Gift from God and not as was falsely something which takes the focus off of Christ and onto the Church:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 2

Whose, "faith," is referenced in Ephesians 2:8? Does it refer to our faith, or Christ's faith?

 

[Kenneth Redden]

Eph 2:28 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

Same thing it means here except here it is in more detail as a Gift from God and not as was falsely something which takes the focus off of Christ and onto the Church:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 2

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood", but from "my Father who is in heaven". Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'"
166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.
176 Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an assent of the intellect and will to the self-revelation God has made through his deeds and words.
179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God. In order to believe, man needs the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.

And here
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 2
91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: ​

Again as the Church states in the Catechism, Grace is a gift from and dispensed by God. Which here Saint Paul is claiming God's Gift of Grace was given him to be an Apostle called to preach to others ("youward" - toward you - the Gentiles in context here)

Is Saint Paul explaining the Personal (meaning by Jesus) Revelation of God to him of the same message given to the Apostles by the same Jesus - a grace the Saint goes on to claim is given him to preach to others (Gentiles specifically) as the Apostles do, preaching the same "mysteries" and "unsearchable riches of Christ" as they do.

So Saint Paul is declaring to other Christians in a letter written to an early 1st century Church is a personal and unique grace for and as a claim to be an Apostle in addition to the original 12 personally mentored by God for three years.

You are confusing me with all those words. The apostle Paul explains to us the "mystery" in, "few words," Ephesians 3:3 KJV. Therefore your guess here cannot be right, but a fabrication; which may be designed to bring, "sin," back to the world, to extract money from the masses. This explains why the Church does not agree with John 1:29 KJV and Hebrews 9:26 KJV. The Church may want to use, "sin", as leverage to control the world; because with sin you get death and power. I believe this is the secret held by the founders of "Christianity," which has been passed down to us here in the 21st Century.

So tell me, by whose faith do we receive salvation. Is it through faith which is in the believer, or is it "through faith which is in Christ Jesus", 2 Timothy 3:15? I believe that we receive salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus, leaving the faith which is in the believer; moot.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Whose, "faith," is referenced in Ephesians 2:8? Does it refer to our faith, or Christ's faith?

The Church in the Catechism says "Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him."
So in that context, we have "faith" because God gives it to us. A gift means it now belongs to us. Am not sure what is difficult to understand about that. What is likely the cause of confusion is a failure to allow our justification to God be more than a singular event. So we talk about a process of on going sanctification which includes a justification to God in the past, present and future and all of that required to "be saved". Some Evangelicals may talk about "dead faith" or "bad or false faith" or "mere belief" but that would not be a Catholic distinction as it is considered an error to for example read James 2 that way.

The teaching has always been that sanctification is a process that is ongoing in our life here, which means it is not over until our life here is over. In such an on-going process, it would be possible to speak of having been "saved" , being "saved" and having the hope to leave this life "saved" all of which is only possible through a faith in Christ that is the first gift of God offered on that path. None of that possible for anyone absent what Christ our Lord God did for us. So it is His continued gifts of Grace from God applied to that Saint Paul describes is building a "holy temple" for "an habitation of God". A "workmanship" that all the Apostles, Saint Paul and Saint James for example describe as just a "work" in process that begins with the gift of Grace to have faith.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"
"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."​

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You are confusing me with all those words. The apostle Paul explains to us the "mystery" in, "few words," Ephesians 3:3 KJV. Therefore your guess here cannot be right, but a fabrication; which may be designed to bring, "sin," back to the world, to extract money from the masses. This explains why the Church does not agree with John 1:29 KJV and Hebrews 9:26 KJV. The Church may want to use, "sin", as leverage to control the world; because with sin you get death and power. I believe this is the secret held by the founders of "Christianity," which has been passed down to us here in the 21st Century.

So tell me, by whose faith do we receive salvation. Is it through faith which is in the believer, or is it "through faith which is in Christ Jesus", 2 Timothy 3:15? I believe that we receive salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus, leaving the faith which is in the believer; moot.

Again, we do not "receive salvation" as a singular event of justification to God. Our faith, meaning something we possess, which a faith we have in Christ Jesus. Which essentially means we believe, have faith (have it only because it was given to us by God) that what He did gives that Man an inheritance of God's Kingdom, and through our faith in Him, we can share in is His Inheritance. All of which is only possible by ongoing and continuing gifts from God - a Grace He gives to us. Ongoing through to the end of this life, or not - meaning we walk away from Him, abandon Him, deny Him...etc.

If it helps, the "faith" that is said to "be in Christ Jesus", as in taken to mean something belonging to Him and then given to us, is along the same lines of a Grace, a gift of God that is given us. That is if the evangelical making such statements even believes Jesus is God.
The difference remains that one sees our justification to God as a singular reception of a gift, apparently in using your words "a reception of a gift of faith that belongs to Jesus". Where as we, and many Christians, see our justification to God as a necessarily ongoing process of repeated gifts from God. If this helps:

"a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior."