I believe "Jesus is God" AND "God is Jesus" because...

"Jesus is God" AND "God is Jesus"

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MJFlores

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What do you mean by "want?" He did become one about 2000 years ago.
Bible verse ___________

This would be prior to the Incarnation (birth of Jesus of Nazareth), wouldn't it?
Bible verse ___________

csi.jpg
 
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~Anastasia~

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Love it Catholic bold, Ms Ambassador.
I was formerly Catholic - born, raised and educated as such.

The Catholic bible says the Lord Jesus isn't God.
It seems the Catholic bible is pointed in another direction, isn't it?
It is affirming the teachings of the Church of Christ.:clap:

You don't need to address me as Ms Ambassador. :)

And no, the Catholics do not believe that Jesus isn't God - they agree with the rest of Christianity that He is indeed fully God and fully man. Though I don't see what it matters what Catholics particularly think. But if you were educated in the Catholic faith and that's what you got from it, perhaps someone wasn't being very clear.

You refer to the Church of Christ which affirms the Book of Mormon? I thought you meant another.

But the sitewide policy affirms the Nicene Creed, which was and is the standard for all of Christianity before the development of any denominations. It was written contra various heresies, one of which was that Jesus was only a man. The Church has rejected that from the very beginning - in St. Thomas' own words, recorded in Scripture, before Christ even ascended into heaven.

Christ IS God. And that is not up for debate within Christianity.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Statement of Faith
CF Statement of Faith | Christian Forums

CF supports the following as a statement of faith:

The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

**May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

------------------------------------------- End quote

Christianity, which has been defined by the Nicene Creed which was binding upon ALL Christians* before any denominations understands that Christ IS God, and that He became man (without ceasing to be God - that would be impossible). So yes, Christ IS fully God AND fully man, at the same time, without confusion or mixing of natures.

*the only exception are the non-Chalcedonians, who today would generally be identified as Oriental Orthodox, who nonetheless agree that Christ IS God and man.

There were no Christians who denied the divinity of Christ, and so the Scriptures (which came to us through early Christians) do not teach this. Any interpretation that argues this from Scripture represents a misunderstanding of the Scriptures.
 
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MJFlores

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Are you in doubt as to whether Christ was born of a woman in Bethlehem and that Hosea is a book of the OLD Testament?

Christ was born in Bethlehem
Christ was born from a virgin named Mary

Luke 1:26-33 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.

He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High;
and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever;
and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

According to Angel Gabriel:
Jesus is the Son of the Most High
Jesus is not the Most High
the Lord God gave to him the throne of his father David
the Lord God is the giver while Jesus is the receiver

Bible is very Catholic from the Latin Vulgate perhaps:
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition.jpg

And its cover says "The Most Trusted Modern Translation Available!"
 
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MJFlores

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You don't need to address me as Ms Ambassador. :)

And no, the Catholics do not believe that Jesus isn't God - they agree with the rest of Christianity that He is indeed fully God and fully man. Though I don't see what it matters what Catholics particularly think. But if you were educated in the Catholic faith and that's what you got from it, perhaps someone wasn't being very clear.

You refer to the Church of Christ which affirms the Book of Mormon? I thought you meant another.

But the sitewide policy affirms the Nicene Creed, which was and is the standard for all of Christianity before the development of any denominations. It was written contra various heresies, one of which was that Jesus was only a man. The Church has rejected that from the very beginning - in St. Thomas' own words, recorded in Scripture, before Christ even ascended into heaven.

Christ IS God. And that is not up for debate within Christianity.

Ain't no Mormon, Miss ~Anastasia~
Mormons believe in the Trinity as gods, Adam is god too, all the people in the bible are gods, and Mormons could be gods also. That is the Mormon belief.

They call themselves Church of Christ Latter Day Saints - (LDS). Knock of LDS, that is Church of Christ - where I belong. One of our beliefs is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is a man and not God.

 
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~Anastasia~

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Ain't no Mormon, Miss ~Anastasia~
Mormons believe in the Trinity as gods, Adam is god too, all the people in the bible are gods, and Mormons could be gods also. That is the Mormon belief.

They call themselves Church of Christ Latter Day Saints - (LDS). Knock of LDS, that is Church of Christ - where I belong. One of our beliefs is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is a man and not God.



Very well. You were not especially forthcoming beyond "Church of Christ" so I checked on the internet and this site Church of Christ which is one "Church of Christ" lists as Article 9 of its statement of beliefs that the Book of Mormon is an additional revelation.

It doesn't really matter which denomination you profess, no need to pursue it.

But as I said, the Church established BY Christ Himself has always recognized the deity of Christ.

St Thomas called Him "my Lord AND MY GOD" when he encountered the Risen Christ.

And as I've told you, these discussions cannot continue in Christian-only forums. It has never been the position of Christianity to deny the divine nature of Christ. My earlier post quoted the site rules.
 
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Albion

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Christ was born in Bethlehem
Christ was born from a virgin named Mary
Then we have agreed that Jesus Christ was a human being.

Now there's only the matter of whether or not he was God as well.
 
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MJFlores

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My Bible includes verse 5 in the 17th chapter of John. Does yours?

-CryptoLutheran

Let's go:

John 17:1-5 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee, since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

How do we have eternal life?
To know the Father as the only true God
and that the Father sent Jesus Christ
 
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ViaCrucis

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Let's go:

John 17:1-5 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee, since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

How do we have eternal life?
To know the Father as the only true God
and that the Father sent Jesus Christ

Did Jesus share in the Father's glory before creation?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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MJFlores

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Did Jesus share in the Father's glory before creation?

-CryptoLutheran

Oh yes ViaCrucis! And the Father loved Jesus before the creation of the world!

John 17:24 New International Version (NIV)

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

The Father sharing the glory and loving the Son before the creation of the world does not make the Lord Jesus Christ, God but the Lord Jesus identified the only true God - his Father. There are people chosen even before creation to be holy and blameless - that does not make them God either.

Ephesians 1:4 New International Version (NIV)

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

ikilybimy.jpg

1 Peter 1:20-21 New International Version (NIV)

He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Oh yes ViaCrucis! And the Father loved Jesus before the creation of the world!

John 17:24 New International Version (NIV)

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

The Father sharing the glory and loving the Son before the creation of the world does not make the Lord Jesus Christ, God but the Lord Jesus identified the only true God - his Father. There are people chosen even before creation to be holy and blameless - that does not make them God either.

Ephesians 1:4 New International Version (NIV)

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

View attachment 192384
1 Peter 1:20-21 New International Version (NIV)

He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

And yet none of us shared in the Father's glory before the creation of the world. The Son did, because He didn't come to know the Father at some point, the Father never became the Father, He's always been the Father because He's always had a Son. A Son who is also His very own Logos, who was in the beginning with God and is God. That's why Jesus can speak of sharing in the Father's glory again, because it's something He knows already, something He has always known, because He always was, as the very begotten Son of the Father, as the Father's very own uncreated Word.

You are certainly welcome to tap dance around this all you like, but the only way you're going to successfully avoid dealing with what is found contained in John's Gospel is if you do as the ancient Alogians did and reject the Fourth Gospel and that Jesus is the Logos as it says.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BobRyan

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I believe "Jesus is God" AND "God is Jesus" because...

If you define "is" as "selfsame", then "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" would both be True, since "Jesus" and "God" are the same "thing".

And if you define "is" as "homegeneous", then "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" would both be True, since "Jesus" and "God" have the same "nature".

But what is the Trinitarian definition of "is" such that "Jesus is God" is True, but "God is Jesus" is False?

One God in THREE persons -- not ONE God in ONE Person.

At Christ's Baptism we see God the Father speaking "THIS is My beloved Son"
At the mount of transfiguration "THIS is My beloved SON"
Jesus in the garden of gethsemane "Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me... nevertheless NOT My will but THY Will be done"

John 14 "IF you loved me you would rejoice for I GO to the Father and the Father is greater than I AM"

John 17 " 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

ONE God -- THREE persons
 
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Yahchristian

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ONE God -- THREE persons

I would prefer not to use the word "person" to describe God since its normal definition is "a human being".

But since Trinitarians insist on using the word "persons" to describe God...

I will define "a being" as "a living thing" and "a person" as "a spirit or human being"...

But given that definition I would say... ONE God -- ONE Person.

But when you say... ONE God -- THREE persons.

What is YOUR definition of "a person"?


P.S.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I think we agree on this...

ONE God -- ONE Lord.

Mark 12:29... And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
 
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Albion

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Persons, or Persona, would be closer to a role assumed by someone such as an actor on stage.

It's one man, but he is perceived by us to be King Lear or one of the Jersey Boys or Henry V, as the case may be. This is not exactly correct, but it's closer than the possibilities I've been reading about here.
 
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Yahchristian

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Persons, or Persona, would be closer to a role assumed by someone such as an actor on stage.

It's one man, but he is perceived by us to be King Lear or one of the Jersey Boys or Henry V, as the case may be. This is not exactly correct, but it's closer than the possibilities I've been reading about here.

If your definition for "a person" is "a role assumed by someone such as an actor on stage"...

Wouldn't the statement "One God, Three Persons" be a description of Modalism (using your definition)?
 
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Albion

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If your definition for "a person" is "a role assumed by someone such as an actor on stage"...

Wouldn't the statement "One God, Three Persons" be a description of Modalism (using your definition)?
That's why I said that this (the explanation) isn't correct. It isn't. BUT it's more in the right direction than some of this stuff that I've been reading again and again. For example, that there is a three man committee in heaven, or that God the Father created some other beings who do things for him on Earth, or others that are even worse.
 
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BobRyan

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I would prefer not to use the word "person" to describe God since its normal definition is "a human being".

One God in THREE "person" is not correct English. THREE is by definition plural - so plural persons -- but singular God.

But when you say... ONE God -- THREE persons.

What is YOUR definition of "a person"?

Three persons SUCH that "Not MY WILL - but THY will" is a statement full of obvious meaning -- and not utter nonsense.


P.S.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I think we agree on this...

ONE God -- ONE Lord.

Mark 12:29... And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

We do agree - Duet 6:4 -- "ONE GOD".
 
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