I believe "Jesus is God" AND "God is Jesus" because...

[sunshine456]

JESUS CHRIST is the son of GOD who is seated at the right hand of the father in heaven GOD.

In accordance with scriptures....

Luke 23:33-35King James Version (KJV)
33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Mark 10:17-27King James Version (KJV)
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

As we can assess by the verses quoted it identifies; JESUS CHRIST is referring to GOD the heavenly father not himself.

Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Yahchristian]

How about this? Do you believe Jesus Christ IS the Father IS the Holy Spirit?

I started a new thread with your specific question. Can you provide your answer to your question on the new thread.

This is my answer...

Yes. I define "IS" as "homoousios" (is of the same substance as) and/or "homogeneous" (is of the same nature as), and "Jesus Christ is of the same substance/nature as the Father is of the

I don't mean to be critical, but it seems to me that using the word "spirit" in the case of your discussion is especially problematic

The Bible uses the word "spirit" to describe God. The Bible does not use the words "substance" or "essence" to describe God.

In my opinion, what is problematic is that the "holy doctors" of the Catholic Church stopped using Biblical terms to describe God and came up with their own terminology.

In other words, this is problematic...
The Church uses the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity. (Catechism 252)

This is not...
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)

 

[~Anastasia~]

I started a new thread with your specific question. Can you provide your answer to your question on the new thread.

This is my answer...

Yes. I define "IS" as "homoousios" (is of the same substance as) and/or "homogeneous" (is of the same nature as), and "Jesus Christ is of the same substance/nature as the Father is of the




The Bible uses the word "spirit" to describe God. The Bible does not use the words "substance" or "essence" to describe God.

In my opinion, what is problematic is that the "holy doctors" of the Catholic Church stopped using Biblical terms to describe God and came up with their own terminology.

In other words, this is problematic...
The Church uses the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity. (Catechism 252)

This is not...
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)

As you wish, first question already answered there.

As to the second, the Bible mentions "spirit" in relation to God, man, angels, and animals. As I said, using even just the term the Bible uses can lead to misunderstanding. The Church (and I'm guessing yo quoted the Catholic catechism), but the Christian Church broadly, for example at Nicea (long before the Catholic Catechism) was using the word translated today as "substance" or "essence" precisely BECAUSE she was all about preventing misunderstandings and heresies and wrong teaching. That's what the Church DID largely in all those meetings.

If you don't like that, then you might not want to accept the Bible at all, because the realization of which writings were authentic and true apart from the many spurious ones circulating comes from the same Church.

 

[MJFlores]

I believe "Jesus is God" AND "God is Jesus" because...

If you define "is" as "selfsame", then "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" would both be True, since "Jesus" and "God" are the same "thing".

And if you define "is" as "homegeneous", then "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" would both be True, since "Jesus" and "God" have the same "nature".

But what is the Trinitarian definition of "is" such that "Jesus is God" is True, but "God is Jesus" is False?

John 8:40 New International Version (NIV)

As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

Jesus said: I am a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God

If he is God, then he would not have said it that he heard the truth from God, isn't it so?

John 17:1,3 New International Version (NIV)

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Where was Jesus looking?

He was looking UP. Why?
He was praying. To whom?
He was praying to the Father who is in heaven.

What did Jesus said?
This is eternal life. How?
To know the Father in heaven. As what?
The only true God.
If we don't believe because Jesus is God and HS is God is the belief?
No eternal life.

 

[Yahchristian]

the Bible mentions "spirit" in relation to God, man, angels, and animals. As I said, using even just the term the Bible uses can lead to misunderstanding. The Church (and I'm guessing yo quoted the Catholic catechism), but the Christian Church broadly, for example at Nicea (long before the Catholic Catechism) was using the word translated today as "substance"

If you don't like that, then you might not want to accept the Bible at all, because the realization of which writings were authentic and true apart from the many spurious ones circulating comes from the same Church.

But I DO like what the Bible says.

It is YOU who prefers what the Catechism says over what the Bible says.

The Bible says God is "Spirit". It does NOT say God is a "substance".

 

[Yahchristian]

If he is God, then he would not have said it that he heard the truth from God, isn't it so?

If we don't believe because Jesus is God and HS is God is the belief?

Your first statement seems to say you disagree with the statement "Jesus is God", but your second statement seems to say you agree with it.

So can you clarify whether you AGREE or DISAGREE with this statement...

Jesus is God.

P.S. I agree with the statement.

 

[MJFlores]

Your first statement seems to say you disagree with the statement "Jesus is God", but your second statement seems to say you agree with it.

So can you clarify whether you AGREE or DISAGREE with this statement...

Jesus is God.

P.S. I agree with the statement.

Jesus isn't God
God is spirit, Jesus is not spirit

John 4:24 New International Version (NIV)
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

 

[Grandpa2390]

You didn't answer the question...

But what is the Trinitarian definition of "is" such that "Jesus is God" is True, but "God is Jesus" is False?

I am just giving an example to point out the logical fallacy. This is not an illustration.

The legislative branch is government, but the government is not the legislative branch.

I would say the best way to think about it by my limited understanding, is to look at the paradox of light.

light is at the same time both completely a wave, and a particle (called photons).
You can say that photons are light and light is photons... but wait! light is also a wave... ... ...

All German Shepherds are dogs, but not all dogs are German Shepherds

I know I haven explained much, that is the nature of paradoxes. And the Bible is full of them (marriage, prayer, the trinity). But maybe you can score a bit higher on the IQ tests

 

[~Anastasia~]

But I DO like what the Bible says.

It is YOU who prefers what the Catechism says over what the Bible says.

The Bible says God is "Spirit". It does NOT say God is a "substance".

I'm not sure which Catechism you are referring to - the Catholic? I don't know it, and I'm not Catholic.

I'm simply telling you that the early Church had an understanding of the truth, from Christ, the Apostles, and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It was they that gave us both the canon of Scripture AND the Creed. If you disagree with the Creed, you disagree with the early Church, and you can't really say you accept the Bible in that case, because without them you wouldn't have it.

But that's ok. I'm not interested in arguing. God is not "a substance" but Jesus IS God AS God the Father IS GOD. The word used is better translated as "essence" and it means the kind of being God is ... it distinguishes Him from human beings.

Forgive me, but you came here confused (or at least you posted in such a way implying it) that you weren't sure if the Holy Spirit was the spirit of man and animals. And either you deny the Trinity, or the distinction between Christ and the Father, or have some other major misunderstanding. If you want to talk about it - what the Church has always believed, then we can do that. But I'm not going to play word games and quibble with you over a word, or be misrepresented. I'm not saying this in an antagonistic way - like I said, I'm glad to help. But if you aren't interested, you are free to believe as you like. I'm just not going to be drawn into anything that just spreads confusion.

There is one God - Father, Son, Holy Spirit, who are all God, and all distinct from one another. Man is something completely separate, as are animals. Everything alive owes its life to God, but are not "part of God" nor confused with Him in any way. And God the Father is not God the Son Jesus Christ is not God the Holy Spirit. This is the Christian faith.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Jesus isn't God
God is spirit, Jesus is not spirit

John 4:24 New International Version (NIV)
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Hello, MJFlores, and welcome to CF. I pray you are blessed by being here.

God is spirit, yes. But God the Son (who is Spirit) became incarnate, taking flesh from the Virgin Mary, being born with a body, so that He could reconcile us to God.

We have to be careful reasoning such things, especially when that reasoning leads us away from revealed truth.

Again, welcome to CF. Please let us know if you have any questions or need help with anything.

 

[MJFlores]

Hello, MJFlores, and welcome to CF. I pray you are blessed by being here.

God is spirit, yes. But God the Son (who is Spirit) became incarnate, taking flesh from the Virgin Mary, being born with a body, so that He could reconcile us to God.

We have to be careful reasoning such things, especially when that reasoning leads us away from revealed truth.

Again, welcome to CF. Please let us know if you have any questions or need help with anything.

Ms Ambassador,

Who said God is spirit as recorded in John 4:24?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ms Ambassador,

Who said God is spirit as recorded in John 4:24?

Christ said it.

But Christianity is founded on the principle that Christ is divine. I'm afraid if you want to argue against that, you'd have to do so in Christianity and world religions.

No Christian church or denomination that I'm aware of regards Christ as not being God.

Christ really should have corrected Thomas when he called Him "my Lord and my God" when he saw Christ after the Resurrection IF He is not God. Remember that Christ did NOT reveal fully who He was and His purpose during His ministry, but only at the end.

 

[MJFlores]

Christ said it.

But Christianity is founded on the principle that Christ is divine. I'm afraid if you want to argue against that, you'd have to do so in Christianity and world religions.

No Christian church or denomination that I'm aware of regards Christ as not being God.

Christ really should have corrected Thomas when he called Him "my Lord and my God" when he saw Christ after the Resurrection. Remember that Christ did NOT reveal fully who He was and His purpose during His ministry, but only at the end.

Christ said it - "God is spirit..." on John 4:24 very true Christ said it. Christ said these too:

John 20:27-29 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

What did the faithless apostle just expressed?

Luke 24:36-39 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

No Christian church or denomination that I'm aware of regards Christ as not being God.

In the Church of Christ we believe the Lord Jesus Christ is a very special man, as apostle Peter wrote in:

Acts 2:22 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—

Bible used:

 

[~Anastasia~]

Christ said it - "God is spirit..." on John 4:24 very true Christ said it. Christ said these too:

John 20:27-29 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

What did the faithless apostle just expressed?

View attachment 192249

Luke 24:36-39 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

View attachment 192250



In the Church of Christ we believe the Lord Jesus Christ is a very special man, as apostle Peter wrote in:

Acts 2:22 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—

Bible used:
View attachment 192251

I'm not sure of your point to keep bolding the word Catholic.

Yes, Jesus IS a man, fully man. He is also God, fully God.

This is the Christian faith. If the Church of Christ denomination does not teach this, then I am surprised.

 

[MJFlores]

I'm not sure of your point to keep bolding the word Catholic.

Yes, Jesus IS a man, fully man. He is also God, fully God.

This is the Christian faith. If the Church of Christ denomination does not teach this, then I am surprised.

Love it Catholic bold, Ms Ambassador.
I was formerly Catholic - born, raised and educated as such.

The Catholic bible says the Lord Jesus isn't God.
It seems the Catholic bible is pointed in another direction, isn't it?
It is affirming the teachings of the Church of Christ.

 

[DarthNeo]

...because only God can forgive sin, and Christ forgave sins...

 

[Albion]

Jesus isn't God
God is spirit, Jesus is not spirit

No, that dispute was settled long ago. Jesus Christ was completely God and completely human at once. The two natures were not one hybrid Man-God nature or, on the other hand, separable such that he was one of them at times and the other at other times.

 

[MJFlores]

...because only God can forgive sin, and Christ forgave sins...

True, very true and we can read that on:

Matthew 9:6 Good News Translation (GNT)

I will prove to you, then, that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, pick up your bed, and go home!”

That's the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of Man. Is his authority his own authority or was it given?

John 5:30 Good News Translation (GNT)

“I can do nothing on my own authority; I judge only as God tells me, so my judgment is right, because I am not trying to do what I want, but only what he who sent me wants.

So the authority to judge and forgive sins is given by God to the Lord Jesus Christ, that is why he can forgive sins. Did the Lord Jesus came on his authority?

John 7:28 Good News Translation (GNT)

As Jesus taught in the Temple, he said in a loud voice, “Do you really know me and know where I am from? I have not come on my own authority. He who sent me, however, is truthful. You do not know him,

John 8:42 Good News Translation (GNT)

Jesus said to them, “If God really were your Father, you would love me, because I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own authority, but he sent me.

Conclusion: The Lord Jesus Christ did not come on his own authority but was sent by God. The Lord Jesus has the power to forgive sins because that authority was given to him by God.

Catholic bible used:

 

[MJFlores]

No, that dispute was settled long ago. Jesus Christ was completely God and completely human at once. The two natures were not one hybrid Man-God nature or, on the other hand, separable such that he was one of them at times and the other at other times.

Does God want to be a man?

Hosea 11:9 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

I will not execute my fierce anger,
I will not again destroy E′phraim;
for I am God and not man,
the Holy One in your midst,
and I will not come to destroy.

Does God want to be a man? The answer is very clear I am God and not man. Maybe God would allow man to become God?

Ezekiel 28:2 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

“Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord God:

“Because your heart is proud,
and you have said, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of the gods,
in the heart of the seas,’
yet you are but a man, and no god,
though you consider yourself as wise as a god—

God says a man is no god. We can say in finality that God is not a man.

Numbers 23:19 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should repent.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it?

How about the Lord Jesus Christ? How did he introduced himself? Did he say he is god and man? or god-man?

John 8:39-40 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do what Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did.

The Lord Jesus said he is a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Recap: God is not a man. Man is not God. The Lord Jesus is a man who heard the truth not from himself, but from God.

Catholic Bible used:

 

[Albion]

Does God want to be a man?

What do you mean by "want?" He did become one about 2000 years ago.

Hosea 11:9 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

I will not execute my fierce anger,
I will not again destroy E′phraim;
for I am God and not man...

This (Hosea) would be prior to the Incarnation (birth of Jesus of Nazareth), wouldn't it?