I believe "Jesus is God" AND "God is Jesus" because...

[dqhall]

But those verses imply that the disciples can all be one just as Jesus and the Father are, which is impossible.

For the one who is saved, Christ is the one God sent to earth to instruct those needing salvation.
In the mind of the unbeliever, miracles cannot exist. One who has experienced a miracle cannot deny Christ's existence.
The light shined in the darkness, but the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You didn't answer the question...

But what is the Trinitarian definition of "is" such that "Jesus is God" is True, but "God is Jesus" is False?

Jesus is of the Father's own Being, therefore the Son is God even as the Father is God. The Son is homoousios with the Father.

The problem I have with "God is Jesus" is that it sounds exclusionary, "God is Jesus" to the exclusion of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

For example:

Grass is green is an accurate statement.
Green is grass is either wrong or, at the very least, a very strange sounding statement. After all, there are things which are green which are not grass.

Jesus isn't God to the exclusion of the Father and the Spirit; but He is God, the one and only God, the very same God as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

I believe "Jesus is God" AND "God is Jesus" because...

If you define "is" as "selfsame", then "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" would both be True, since "Jesus" and "God" are the same "thing".

And if you define "is" as "homegeneous", then "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" would both be True, since "Jesus" and "God" have the same "nature".

But what is the Trinitarian definition of "is" such that "Jesus is God" is True, but "God is Jesus" is False?

This is a semantical issue, not a conceptual problem. The proper understanding is that God is one essence and three persons. To give a semantically similar example, it would be like asking the question: How can Tom be of the family and the family not be Tom? Essence and persons in the distinction that needs to be understood.

 

[Alithis]

Are you able to answer the question...

It would seem that if you define "is" as "homogeneous"...
Then "Jesus is God" because Jesus has the same nature as God.
And "God is Jesus" because God has the same nature as Jesus.

But Trinitarians do not believe "God is Jesus". So...

What is the Trinitarian definition of "is" such that "Jesus is God" is True, but "God is Jesus" is False?

No. God is salvation (God is jesus)..is also true.
People are shy of answering because of c.f. rules. But it would be a misunderstanding to think it's opposing the trinity to say Jesus is God but god is also Jesus. Firstly the name Jesus means salvation or savior and God is salvation .But the one named Jesus is the word of God become flesh.
So ,is God his word? yes .does God's word speak itself?no . so God ,who is his word ,speaks out his word .his word does not speak itself.it is spoken out by the speaker.but the spoken out word carries the Full authority of the speaker.
Thus the word spoken out is equal in authority to the speaker while being subject to the speaker At the same time.
Jesus said as much a number of times
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

 

[Yahchristian]

The problem I have with "God is Jesus" is that it sounds exclusionary, "God is Jesus" to the exclusion of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

According to the doctrine of the Trinity...
it would seem the statements "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" should both be True, or both be False.

It would simply depend on whether you define "is" as "homogeneous" (has the same nature as)...
or if you define "is" as "selfsame" (is the same thing as).

So if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "homogeneous"...
"Jesus [has the same nature as] God" should be True.
"God [has the same nature as] Jesus" should be True.

And if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "selfsame"...
"Jesus [is the same thing as] God" should be False.
"God [is the same thing as] Jesus" should be False.

Perhaps if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "is a subset of" (which would be an unusual definition for "is") then...
"Jesus [is a subset of] God" would be True.
"God [is a subset of] Jesus" would be False.

What is YOUR definition for "is" in the statements "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus"?

P.S. Personally, I believe both statements are True with either definition for "is".

 

[pescador]

But those verses imply that the disciples can all be one just as Jesus and the Father are, which is impossible.

No it isn't. Anyone who has been born of the Spirit is in Christ (literally). He is the head, we are the body. We are all one, yet separate.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I believe "Jesus is God" AND "God is Jesus" because...

If you define "is" as "selfsame", then "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" would both be True, since "Jesus" and "God" are the same "thing".

And if you define "is" as "homegeneous", then "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" would both be True, since "Jesus" and "God" have the same "nature".

But what is the Trinitarian definition of "is" such that "Jesus is God" is True, but "God is Jesus" is False?

Jesus is god in flesh

 

[CrystalDragon]

No it isn't. Anyone who has been born of the Spirit is in Christ (literally). He is the head, we are the body. We are all one, yet separate.

But when people refer to "I and the Father are one", it's used as evidence for the Trinity, that Jesus is God. If that verse really did mean that, and we were one with Jesus in the same way that he is one with the Father (making Jesus God) then that would mean that were all one with God the same way Jesus is. which isn't the case.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

But when people refer to "I and the Father are one", it's used as evidence for the Trinity, that Jesus is God. If that verse really did mean that, and we were one with Jesus in the same way that he is one with the Father (making Jesus God) then that would mean that were all one with God the same way Jesus is. which isn't the case.

Jesus was the fullness of the god head. We aren't, all those who are saved make the body of Christ. Jesus was god in the flesh the fullness of it. This is what the other guy is trying to say I believe. Those who are saved as a collective make up the body of Christ.

 

[Yahchristian]

According to the doctrine of the Trinity...
it would seem the statements "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" should both be True, or both be False.

It would simply depend on whether you define "is" as "homogeneous" (has the same nature as)...
or if you define "is" as "selfsame" (is the same thing as).

So if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "homogeneous"...
"Jesus [has the same nature as] God" should be True.
"God [has the same nature as] Jesus" should be True.

And if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "selfsame"...
"Jesus [is the same thing as] God" should be False.
"God [is the same thing as] Jesus" should be False.

Perhaps if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "is a subset of" (which would be an unusual definition for "is") then...
"Jesus [is a subset of] God" would be True.
"God [is a subset of] Jesus" would be False.

What is YOUR definition for "is" in the statements "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus"?

P.S. Personally, I believe both statements are True with either definition for "is".

 

[ViaCrucis]

According to the doctrine of the Trinity...
it would seem the statements "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" should both be True, or both be False.

It would simply depend on whether you define "is" as "homogeneous" (has the same nature as)...
or if you define "is" as "selfsame" (is the same thing as).

So if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "homogeneous"...
"Jesus [has the same nature as] God" should be True.
"God [has the same nature as] Jesus" should be True.

And if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "selfsame"...
"Jesus [is the same thing as] God" should be False.
"God [is the same thing as] Jesus" should be False.

Perhaps if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "is a subset of" (which would be an unusual definition for "is") then...
"Jesus [is a subset of] God" would be True.
"God [is a subset of] Jesus" would be False.

What is your definition for "is" in the statements "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus"?

P.S. Personally, I believe both statements are True with either definition for "is".

The Trinitarian defines it as homoousios. The Son is of the same nature and being as the Father, which is to say, He is God. He is God because He is homoousios with the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[~Anastasia~]

According to the doctrine of the Trinity...
it would seem the statements "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" should both be True, or both be False.

It would simply depend on whether you define "is" as "homogeneous" (has the same nature as)...
or if you define "is" as "selfsame" (is the same thing as).

So if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "homogeneous"...
"Jesus [has the same nature as] God" should be True.
"God [has the same nature as] Jesus" should be True.

And if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "selfsame"...
"Jesus [is the same thing as] God" should be False.
"God [is the same thing as] Jesus" should be False.

Perhaps if a Trinitarian defines "is" as "is a subset of" (which would be an unusual definition for "is") then...
"Jesus [is a subset of] God" would be True.
"God [is a subset of] Jesus" would be False.

What is YOUR definition for "is" in the statements "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus"?

P.S. Personally, I believe both statements are True with either definition for "is".

But you are trying to redefine how language works, and demanding people agree with you.

Most people who speak English will understand "God is Jesus" to be exclusionary of the Father and the Holy Spirit. That's how English works, regardless of what you or I or any other person thinks or likes.

May I turn it around and ask you directly then?

Who is the Father?

Who is the Holy Spirit?

How do they relate to Jesus Christ?

 

[Yahchristian]

The Trinitarian defines it as homoousios. The Son is of the same nature and being as the Father, which is to say, He is God. He is God because He is homoousios with the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

So...

If the Trinitarian defines "is" as "homoousios" (is of the same nature and being as), then...
"Jesus is God" should be True.
"God is Jesus" should be True.
"Jesus is the Father" should be True.
"Jesus is the Holy Spirit" should be True.
"The Holy Spirit is the Father" should be True.

Correct?

Since those statements would mean...
"Jesus [is of the same nature and being as] God."
"God [is of the same nature and being as] Jesus."
"Jesus [is of the same nature and being as] the Father."
"Jesus [is of the same nature and being as] the Holy Spirit."
"The Holy Spirit [is of the same nature and being as] the Father."

 

[ViaCrucis]

So...

If the Trinitarian defines "is" as "homoousios" (is of the same nature and being as), then...
"Jesus is God" should be True.
"God is Jesus" should be True.
"Jesus is the Father" should be True.
"Jesus is the Holy Spirit" should be True.
"The Holy Spirit is the Father" should be True.

Correct?

Since those statement would mean...
"Jesus [is of the same nature and being as] God."
"God [is of the same nature and being as] Jesus."
"Jesus [is of the same nature and being as] the Father."
"Jesus [is of the same nature and being as] the Holy Spirit."
"The Holy Spirit [is of the same nature and being as] the Father."

No. Jesus isn't the Father, Jesus is the Son. Jesus isn't the Spirit, Jesus is the Son. The Son (Jesus) is God because He is homoousios with the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Yahchristian]

May I turn it around and ask you directly then?

Who is the Father?

Who is the Holy Spirit?

How do they relate to Jesus Christ?

Who is the Father?
The Father is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) in transcendence.
Isaiah 64:8 ASV... But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Who is the Holy Spirit?
The holy Spirit is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) in immanence.
Isaiah 63:7,10 ASV... I will make mention of the lovingkindnesses of Jehovah, and the praises of Jehovah, according to all that Jehovah hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses... But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.

How do they relate to Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) incarnate.
1 Timothy 3:16 ASV... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Now can you provide your answers to your own questions...
Who is the Father?
Who is the Holy Spirit?
How do they relate to Jesus Christ?

P.S. I define "is" as "selfsame". You can provide your own definition along with your answers.

 

[Yahchristian]

No. Jesus isn't the Father, Jesus is the Son. Jesus isn't the Spirit, Jesus is the Son. The Son (Jesus) is God because He is homoousios with the Father.

Since you define "is" as "is homoousios with"...

Then when you say... Jesus is homoousios with the Father...

It is the same as saying... Jesus is the Father.


You would be better off defining "is" as "is a member of". That way...

"Jesus is God" would mean "Jesus [is a member of] God", and you could say that is True.

"God is Jesus" would mean "God [is a member of] Jesus", and you could say that is False.


But if you are going to define "is" as either "is the selfsame as", "is homogeneous with", or "is homoousios with", then...

The statements "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus" are both True or they are both False.

P.S. I say they are both True.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Who is the Father?
The Father is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) in transcendence.
Isaiah 64:8 ASV... But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Who is the Holy Spirit?
The holy Spirit is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) in immanence.
Isaiah 63:7,10 ASV... I will make mention of the lovingkindnesses of Jehovah, and the praises of Jehovah, according to all that Jehovah hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses... But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.

How do they relate to Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) incarnate.
1 Timothy 3:16 ASV... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Now can you provide your answers to your own questions...
Who is the Father?
Who is the Holy Spirit?
How do they relate to Jesus Christ?

P.S. I define "is" as "selfsame". You can provide your own definition along with your answers.

I'm not looking to argue with you, by the way, but trying to understand. I can't quite get certain basic points behind the end conclusion you are presenting, and I don't like to assume and misunderstand people.

But in answer to your query, I will say this. The Father is God, and is the Source of everything. The Son is God, and is begotten of the Father, of the same Essence as the Father, became incarnate in human flesh, and is Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is God, and proceeds/is breathed from the Father.

If you want definitions of any of these words, I am happy to try. I don't define them myself, but I mean the useage which has been handed down to us. If any are confusing, I'll try to help.

Two further questions, which I can't be sure from your post?

Do you believe Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be DISTINCT from one another? Do you believe them each to be eternally existent?

 

[Yahchristian]

The Father is God, and is the Source of everything. The Son is God, and is begotten of the Father, of the same Essence as the Father, became incarnate in human flesh, and is Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is God, and proceeds/is breathed from the Father.

I thought you were asking "who" and not "what", but here are our answers anyway...

Who is the Father?

I say... The Father is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) in transcendence.

You say... The Father is God, and is the Source of everything.


Who is the Holy Spirit?

I say... The holy Spirit is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) in immanence.

You say... The Holy Spirit is God, and proceeds/is breathed from the Father.


How do they relate to Jesus Christ?

I say... Jesus Christ is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) incarnate.

You say... The Son is God, and is begotten of the Father, of the same Essence as the Father, became incarnate in human flesh, and is Jesus Christ.

Do you believe Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be DISTINCT from one another? Do you believe them each to be eternally existent?

Do you believe Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be DISTINCT from one another?

No, if you define "distinct" as "1. recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type".

How do you define "distinct" and what is your answer to your question?


Do you believe them each to be eternally existent?

I believe there is only one (a, the) eternal Spirit, who is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc).

John 4:24... God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Hebrews 9:14... How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

What do you mean by "each" and what is your answer to your question?

 

[pescador]

But when people refer to "I and the Father are one", it's used as evidence for the Trinity, that Jesus is God. If that verse really did mean that, and we were one with Jesus in the same way that he is one with the Father (making Jesus God) then that would mean that were all one with God the same way Jesus is. which isn't the case.

Yes it is. Jesus is the firstborn, we are adopted.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I thought you were asking "who" and not "what", but here are our answers anyway...

Who is the Father?

I say... The Father is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) in transcendence.

You say... The Father is God, and is the Source of everything.


Who is the Holy Spirit?

I say... The holy Spirit is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) in immanence.

You say... The Holy Spirit is God, and proceeds/is breathed from the Father.


How do they relate to Jesus Christ?

I say... Jesus Christ is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc) incarnate.

You say... The Son is God, and is begotten of the Father, of the same Essence as the Father, became incarnate in human flesh, and is Jesus Christ.

I hope we are making progress here ...

Do you believe Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be DISTINCT from one another?

No, if you define "distinct" as "1. recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type".

How do you define "distinct" and what is your answer to your question?

Here is where it gets tricky, because most words in English will imply something I do not mean.

I do believe they share a nature, a single Essence. So I do not disagree with your statement as written.

How about this? Do you believe Jesus Christ IS the Father IS the Holy Spirit?

Do you believe them each to be eternally existent?

I believe there is only one (a, the) eternal Spirit, who is Jehovah (YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh/LORD/etc).

John 4:24... God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Hebrews 9:14... How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

What do you mean by "each" and what is your answer to your question?

My answer there has to do with my last question to you. If they are all distinct, they are not each other, and to that point, yes, I believe that each (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are all eternally existent. By definition, they would have to be, if they are God. God is not a created thing/being.


I don't mean to be critical, but it seems to me that using the word "spirit" in the case of your discussion is especially problematic, since I believe you were asking in another thread if the spirit that was life in persons (and presumably animals?) was the Spirit that is God ... which REALLY opens up some major theological issues. Especially if taken to the extreme that "everything is god" in a pantheistic or animistic sense. So I hope you understand that using "spirit" loosely can lead to very great misunderstandings.

But what I'm trying to understand right now is if you are saying that Jesus is the Father is the Holy Spirit - as in there is no meaning to the distinction between them. Or something else?