I believe I have full understanding now

JohnB445

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The relationship with God is simple. To believe Jesus took our place and died for our sins, and accept him as our savior.

We cannot possibly save ourselves. The Holy Spirit that dwells in born again believers is a helper that God seals us with. The Holy Spirit is what drives us to produce good fruit, not ourselves.

To observe the laws, or think we need works involved in salvation is believing in vain, or saying that Jesus death on the cross wasn't sufficient enough for our salvation.

I believe its by faith we are saved, although yes of course God wants us to be closer with him I'm not saying faith is an excuse to go out doing bad things deliberately. We are all sinners and we all fall short, thats why we are justified by our faith. Jesus is our advocate and the only way.
 

Kalboon

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Jesus is our advocate and the only way.

Amen!
The Hypostatic Union of God and Man, the uncreated Creator who walked in the Garden and talked with Adam and Eve. The Hypostatic Union who breathed his humanity into all off us and made us in his own likeness.

The model human is the second member of the Trinity. The visible God of God Light of Light of the Father and the Holy Ruarch who is ONE in Being yet has revealed himself as three distinct personalities.

We have come to know the one being/substance through the Son, the Hypostatic Union of God and Human before he created the world.
 
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Soyeong

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To observe the laws, or think we need works involved in salvation is believing in vain, or saying that Jesus death on the cross wasn't sufficient enough for our salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It's is not the case that there is something wrong with observing God's laws as though God does not want us to obey Him, but that doing good works in obedience to God's laws has a proper place. We are not saved by doing good works, but rather we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so we are not saved by our obedience, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are saved also requires our obedience.
 
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St_Worm2

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The Hypostatic Union who breathed his humanity into all off us and made us in his own likeness...the Hypostatic Union of God and Human before he created the world.
Hi Kalboon, the Bible tells us that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us .. John 1:14 at His Incarnation (by His mother Mary, according to the manhood), not that He has been both Divine and human from everlasting, unless I've missed something?

If I have, please tell me/us where we can find that teaching in the Bible.

The Bible also teaches us that at His Incarnation, Jesus was made in our likeness, in likeness of men, not the other way around .. e.g. Philippians 2:7

Finally, the Godhead consists of one God who exists from everlasting as three "Persons", not one God with multiple personalities (or some sort of Divine multiple personality disorder ;)).

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - what does it mean to "breath humanity", and that into all of mankind? And again, where does the Bible describe that particular event happening?
 
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St_Worm2

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It's is not the case that there is something wrong with observing God's laws as though God does not want us to obey Him, but that doing good works in obedience to God's laws has a proper place. We are not saved by doing good works, but rather we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so we are not saved by our obedience, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are saved also requires our obedience.
Hi Soyeong, I am in agreement with most of what you just said, but I'm confused by your statement that saving grace and faith "requires" our obedience.

Would you might elaborating on what you mean by that, that grace and faith "requires" our obedience? (and perhaps how that is different from what I would say instead, that saving grace and faith RESULT in our obedience?)

Thanks!

--David
 
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joinfree

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To observe the laws, or think we need works involved in salvation is believing in vain, or saying that Jesus death on the cross wasn't sufficient enough for our salvation.
Luke 19:20 "Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth."
 
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Kalboon

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the Bible tells us that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us .. John 1:14 at His Incarnation (by His mother Mary, according to the manhood), not that He has been both Divine and human from everlasting, unless I've missed something?

The declaration of the Hypostatic Union stems from the Nicene Creed that states "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial of one Being with the Father.

consubstantial
kɒnsəbˈstanʃ(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: consubstantial
  1. of the same substance or essence (used especially of the three persons of the Trinity in Christian theology).
    "Christ is consubstantial with the Father"
I believe you have missed something very very important.
The Hypostatic Union (HU) of God and Humanity is uncreated and has no beginning. To imply that the HU had a beginning, only after the incarnation unwittingly results in a Nestorian dilemma in that the mere implication is that before the incarnation there existed two separate natures and this also goes against the Nicene Creed that declares that the HU is uncreated and has no beginning.

The Word became flesh meaning a terrestrial form and dwelt amongst us, yet the HU is not the terrestrial fleshly form, because the inseparable nature of the HU is uncreated and must have pre-existed the incarnation of the flesh.

The Living Word, the second member of the Trinity is (uncreated) God and Human from everlasting, where humanity is an inherent attribute of the uncreated nature and not the flesh the HU was clothed with at the incarnation.

If I have, please tell me/us where we can find that teaching in the Bible.

The HU walked in the Garden and interacted and talked with Adam and Eve. The HU would also say that before Abraham was I Am and this forms the preeminence of the Son as the one and only of his kind the HU and from before the creation of the world. This implies that when he breathed into Adam in creating Adam in his likeness we automatically can draw that we received our humanity from the HU and not the other way around as some theologians would suggest that the HU received it from Mary at the incarnation. The Living Word (LOGOS) is the HU that is the one uncreated and unbegotten nature and if he from before the world was created by him was not HU then we would not be human. Do you understand? The HU created Adam like himself that is his humanity for this is where we humans received our humanity.

The Living Word did not receive his HU uncreated nature because he just was from the beginning. So it would be in error to think that HU became HU and this implies a beginning which goes against the Nicene Creed and it creates a Nestorian heretical problem of two separate natures existing before the incarnation, where the Devine is separate to the Humanity, which is a heresy.

For example, the statement below is a Nestorian Heresy.

"not that He has been both Divine and human from everlasting"

In the resurrection, though the HU took on the new Heavenly form, his HU status remained unchanged because he never received it at the incarnation from Mary but was HU from the beginning as the uncreated eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial of one Being with the Father. (Nicene Creed)

The Bible also teaches us that at His Incarnation, Jesus was made in our likeness, in likeness of men, not the other way around .. e.g. Philippians 2:7

As soon as you use this reverse logic then you have Genesis happening at the incarnation where humanity creates God in their own image and this would imply two separate natures before the incarnation and this forms the basis of the Nestorian heresy.

The truth is found in Genesis where the Hypostatic Union of God and Man created humanity in his own image. This points to nature, which implies that we received our human nature from the HU, otherwise we would not be human and/or some other god would have imparted his distinct nature. We owe our humanity to the HU, not the other way around.

Finally, the Godhead consists of one God who exists from everlasting as three "Persons", not one God with multiple personalities (or some sort of Divine multiple personality disorder ;)).

With reference to the Nicene Creed, the One God is the One Being, is the One Agency.

"eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial of one Being with the Father."

Consubstantial of one Being is the I AM, the first and the last of his kind, the Alpha and Omega. Nicene Creed declares the Trinity is One Substance indivisible, hence he is the One God being.

Within the singular God being (substance) exists coeternal and coequally three personas or personalities that are revealed through scripture. Three personalities within the one God Being do not equate to three separate beings. There is no personality disorder within an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient being.

p.s. - what does it mean to "breath humanity", and that into all of mankind? And again, where does the Bible describe that particular event happening?

The HU created man in his own Human nature and this is where we received our humanity in the Genesis account. If the Word received his humanity in the incarnation then it is man who created God in his own image and Genesis of HU at the incarnation would imply separate natures before the incarnation and a beginning for the HU which is a Nestorian heresy and goes against the Nicene Creed.
 
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Soyeong

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Hi Soyeong, I am in agreement with most of what you just said, but I'm confused by your statement that saving grace and faith "requires" our obedience.

Would you might elaborating on what you mean by that, that grace and faith "requires" our obedience? (and perhaps how that is different from what I would say instead, that saving grace and faith RESULT in our obedience?)

Thanks!

--David

Hello,

I don't see faith and works as being two distinct things such that one results in the other, but rather good works are the expression of faith or what faith looks like, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified. We can't have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live while refusing to follow His instructions for how to do that, so we are not saved by our obedience but by having a faith that requires our obedience or that expresses itself as obedience. In James 2:18, he didn't say that the result of his faith is good works, but that he would show his faith by his works. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to live in obedience God, so that is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God looks like, not something added on top of our faith or to earn our salvation.
 
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drjean

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"The Living Word, the second member of the Trinity is (uncreated) God and Human from everlasting, where humanity is an inherent attribute of the uncreated nature and not the flesh the HU was clothed with at the incarnation."

Everlasting means having a beginning but no end.
Eternal means no beginning and no end.

So the HU is eternal, the humanity is everlasting.


As for the OP comment that we are all sinners... well, no. As Paul said, ...as some of you WERE... but believers no longer have sin (as unto death).. though we err we do not own it. JESUS owns it... he took our sin on the cross. He removed our sin from us 'as far as the east is from the west'. IDK about y'all but that's too far for me to go get it even if I wanted to! ;) Peace.
 
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fhansen

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The relationship with God is simple. To believe Jesus took our place and died for our sins, and accept him as our savior.

We cannot possibly save ourselves. The Holy Spirit that dwells in born again believers is a helper that God seals us with. The Holy Spirit is what drives us to produce good fruit, not ourselves.

To observe the laws, or think we need works involved in salvation is believing in vain, or saying that Jesus death on the cross wasn't sufficient enough for our salvation.

I believe its by faith we are saved, although yes of course God wants us to be closer with him I'm not saying faith is an excuse to go out doing bad things deliberately. We are all sinners and we all fall short, thats why we are justified by our faith. Jesus is our advocate and the only way.
Yes, it's important to nail all this down. But it's also important to not think it's a slam dunk just because we've once believed. We must walk in obedience of God from our conversion onward, while knowing that He'll continue to forgive our sins while not taking it for granted that He'll do so carte blanc without repentance and recommittance again. We know that obedience must be the overriding factor in our lives; we must remain in Him and He in us so that the Holy Spirit can, indeed, drive us to produce good fruit. Read Matt 25:31-46 to see how we'll be looked upon without that fruit. In the end God's the judge, of how we did with what we were given. Luke 12:48 as well as the Parable of the Talents shed light on this dynamic.

Either way, grace, and our cooperation with it as we work out our salvation with He who works in us, is how the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:31-34 is fulfilled.
 
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